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Old 03-25-2020, 06:19 PM   #1
BillyRipkenStoleMyChurro
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Theory on Relievers?

I'm wondering if it's better to keep RP in relief roles, and not repurpose SP or CL to LR, MR or SU roles. I only have anecdotal evidence that this may mean something (my two lowest WAR are CL's in MR and SU roles). Anything to this, or just random?
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Old 03-25-2020, 06:47 PM   #2
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Well I think they'd need to have enough stamina to last (TWSS) as SP.
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Old 03-26-2020, 03:09 AM   #3
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"Closer" vs. "reliever" is not a distinction which the game treats as significant, no. It's completely cosmetic. (At least in terms of results -- I think it might affect what the game does when asked to automatically set up a bullpen? It definitely does when setting up a batting lineup/depth chart, but I wouldn't know offhand for relievers.)

On repurposing relievers as starters or vice versa: most relievers don't have the stamina to start, of course. The ones who do may not have 3+ effective pitches, and the game penalizes them for that in longer outings. There are a few players marked "reliever" who could just as easily start, but not most of them.

As far as the reverse scenario is concerned, there's nothing preventing a starter from relieving, but as in the real world, it's not necessarily the best use of resources. Given a starter and reliever with the same overall rating, the reliever is usually going to have better stuff/movement/control stats. And if a starter is good enough to match up to your relievers in terms of short-term pitch quality, why wouldn't you want him taking on a full workload?

That much having been said, it's certainly not a problem to have one or two long relievers with good stamina who can pitch multiple innings. In my experience, it often makes sense to place a sixth starter into that role (particularly in PT, where high-stamina relievers are a little harder to find.)

Note also that the displayed "stuff" rating tends to decrease when converting a player's displayed position from starter to reliever -- again, this is because the game weights the quality of starters' third and subsequent pitches more highly than it does for relievers. That doesn't mean that changing the displayed position from SP to RP/CL changes the underlying numbers -- the pitcher pitches the same when given the same role on the pitching rotation/bullpen page, regardless of how his player position is set. The displayed composite numbers just change to reflect the results if the player were to be used in the role his set position would suggest.
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Old 03-28-2020, 07:17 PM   #4
halfbutt
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How exactly are starters that are repurposed into the bullpen changed into relievers?

I understand having a starter as a long guy in the pen, but I've seen a few actual starter cards in my opponents' pens with RP designations. Is this just a question of innings pitched in relief as opposed to starting?
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Old 03-28-2020, 07:28 PM   #5
mcdog512
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Quote:
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How exactly are starters that are repurposed into the bullpen changed into relievers?

I understand having a starter as a long guy in the pen, but I've seen a few actual starter cards in my opponents' pens with RP designations. Is this just a question of innings pitched in relief as opposed to starting?

Just like real baseball they aren't changed so to speak. They are simply told, you're in the pen now.
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Old 03-28-2020, 07:39 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyRipkenStoleMyChurro View Post
I'm wondering if it's better to keep RP in relief roles, and not repurpose SP or CL to LR, MR or SU roles. I only have anecdotal evidence that this may mean something (my two lowest WAR are CL's in MR and SU roles). Anything to this, or just random?
Keep in mind that unlike in OOTP20, relievers this year do have a massive advantage in stuff and it matters much more as far as I can see.... So I'm sticking to relievers and closer for the pen.
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Old 03-28-2020, 11:04 PM   #7
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In PT 19 and 20, it was very common to see the elite teams put 1 if not 2 extra starters in the bulllpen. Contrary to one of the posts, my understanding is that STF rating generally goes up for starters moved into the pen and changed to relief roles, not down.

For deep teams, the 6th and 7th SP is frequently better than the 5th or 6th reliever on the team.
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Old 03-29-2020, 04:19 PM   #8
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In years past, SP who move to RP get a boost in stuff.
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Old 03-29-2020, 08:41 PM   #9
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In PT 19 and 20, it was very common to see the elite teams put 1 if not 2 extra starters in the bulllpen. Contrary to one of the posts, my understanding is that STF rating generally goes up for starters moved into the pen and changed to relief roles, not down.

For deep teams, the 6th and 7th SP is frequently better than the 5th or 6th reliever on the team.
Yea, I've noticed the stuff go up most times I put starters in the pen. I've mostly been noticing/doing that in the tourneys where my starters end up being better than many of the Iron/Bronze RP. I have been lucky pulling SP in my tourney pack rewards but haven't been getting RP, at this point my bullpen is 4 actual RP and 4 SP repurposed as relievers (Berrios at closer, Quintana in middle relief, Danny Jackson as a LOOGY and Luzardo as long relief/emergency SP). Not sure if this will actually work out or not but we'll see how it goes.
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Old 03-30-2020, 12:16 AM   #10
Orion
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After the changes, I wouldn't run more than 2 SP's in the pen, mainly as Long/Middle relief. They can't pitch back to back, and.the RP's seem to last longer than last season, 2 IP is not uncommon and the are sporting better triple stats than a starter with the same # rating.
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Old 03-30-2020, 12:17 AM   #11
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In years past, SP who move to RP get a boost in stuff.
Some still do, many don't. SE Randy Johnson got a noticeable boost. Finesse pitchers see to get nada.
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Old 03-30-2020, 10:03 AM   #12
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After the changes, I wouldn't run more than 2 SP's in the pen, mainly as Long/Middle relief. They can't pitch back to back, and.the RP's seem to last longer than last season, 2 IP is not uncommon and the are sporting better triple stats than a starter with the same # rating.
This explains a thing or two. I was wondering why my bullpen was constantly taxed. Thanks for this info!
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Old 03-31-2020, 10:47 PM   #13
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What does all this mean for the players listed as both Relievers and Starters depending on where you look? The first two examples of this I could think of were Rollie Fingers and Mike Caldwell. The 1971 Fingers is listed in the AH as a closer and has 29 stamina, but is listed as a Starter on his card. The 1982 Caldwell is listed in the AH as a starter and has 91 stamina, but is listed as a Reliever on his card.

Beyond that, what does stamina mean? For a pitcher consistently listed as a Starter with low stamina (see 1971 Nelson Briles and his 30 stamina as an example here), are they doubly penalized by the low stamina and the starter's demeanor when moved to the bullpen?
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Old 04-01-2020, 10:37 PM   #14
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The stuff rating goes up more the more blue pitch ratings a player has.
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Old 04-02-2020, 11:08 AM   #15
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I have to say, I'm not a fan of starters out of the pen. I mean, I'm ok with having a starter as a long reliever, but I just had a game where my team faced Steve Carlton, Bert Blyleven, and Randy Johnson. Carlton went 6 innings.

I mean, good tactic? Sure, the guy won, but, to me, it's kinda lame. Just my .02 cents worth.
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Old 04-02-2020, 09:59 PM   #16
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What does all this mean for the players listed as both Relievers and Starters depending on where you look? The first two examples of this I could think of were Rollie Fingers and Mike Caldwell. The 1971 Fingers is listed in the AH as a closer and has 29 stamina, but is listed as a Starter on his card. The 1982 Caldwell is listed in the AH as a starter and has 91 stamina, but is listed as a Reliever on his card.

Beyond that, what does stamina mean? For a pitcher consistently listed as a Starter with low stamina (see 1971 Nelson Briles and his 30 stamina as an example here), are they doubly penalized by the low stamina and the starter's demeanor when moved to the bullpen?

*HINT* Control helps stamina with the new pitching changes. RP's with 90+ control can go 2+ innings if they pitch well. Starters with high Control will also last longer, again dependent on not sucking. As for those high stamina relievers...I believe there is a stopper role that has their name all over it...
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Old 04-03-2020, 12:43 AM   #17
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*HINT* Control helps stamina with the new pitching changes. RP's with 90+ control can go 2+ innings if they pitch well. Starters with high Control will also last longer, again dependent on not sucking. As for those high stamina relievers...I believe there is a stopper role that has their name all over it...
I think my question is not being completely understood. The ability to throw strikes will naturally allow pitchers to last longer in a game. What I want to know more about is the relationship between the stamina rating, fatigue recovery, and role. I care more about a pitcher's usage from game to game to game than his usage in any one game.

If it is correct that those players deemed by the game to be starters are treated differently when use in relief that those deemed to be relievers, then I want to arrive at a better understanding of how this works. This is especially pressing due to a surprisingly high number of pitchers where their assigned in game role is either unclear or inconsistent.
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Old 04-03-2020, 05:41 PM   #18
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The first place team in my division has 13 pitchers on their active roster. 11 are starters. Obviously, the tactic works, but personally, I find it a bit bush league.
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Old 04-03-2020, 06:47 PM   #19
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The first place team in my division has 13 pitchers on their active roster. 11 are starters. Obviously, the tactic works, but personally, I find it a bit bush league.
Bush league? Starters moving to the bullpen is a real thing in baseball. Is bunting bush league? Having an old shortstop or catcher move to 1b when they get older. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it.
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Old 04-03-2020, 06:57 PM   #20
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Is bunting bush league?
The Diamondbacks and Curt Schilling certainly thought so on 26 May 2001
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