OOTP's bugs are driving me crazy!

[Crosley Field]

Once again the stupid auto-substitution bug has bit me. (See my previous post about this bug here.)

This time it was my starting pitcher that was injured while the third out was recorded (while I was on defense). OOTP takes me to the Team Substitutions screen and has auto-subbed in a PH for the injured pitcher, but won't allow that player to hit--it is making me replace the yet-to-hit PH before returning to the BNN Broadcast screen to resume the game. GRRRR!

So now I must take out a player (the PH) who hasn't been used in any capacity, but he's now shown as being used, and therefore unavailable to be used at all in this game. This is totally messed up!

Also, has anyone noticed that the box scores aren't always 100% accurate. 2-out RBI are repeatedly incorrect. Sometimes Sacrifice Hits (Bunts) and Sacrifice Flies are incorrect. Other inaccuracies have also cropped up from time-to-time. If the game uses any of these stats as a basis for determining the future performance and ratings for the players, OOTP is seriously flawed!

Also, I have a rookie playing just after being drafted in June. He was hitting well over .500, then over .400, for his first several weeks. Yet the play-by-play introduces him as "having a dismal year" and "hitting a measly .500." Once again, if this is tied to the data/stats that the AI uses to determine the results then there is a fatal flaw in this game!

There are other issues, much too numerous to keep track of.

I'm just about to give up on OOTP, as so many bugs have been reported but nothing seems to result from it. Even the patch was fatally flawed. I'm glad I didn't install it, and stuck with 11.1.8.

I bought this game to play it, NOT to be a paying beta tester!

It's very sad, as OOTP would be a great game if it lived up to its promise.

[TribeFanInNC]

I am sorry you can not see the forest for the trees. Enjoy the forest. It's beautiful in the fall.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by Crosley Field

Also, I have a rookie playing just after being drafted in June. He was hitting well over .500, then over .400, for his first several weeks. Yet the play-by-play introduces him as "having a dismal year" and "hitting a measly .500." Once again, if this is tied to the data/stats that the AI uses to determine the results then there is a fatal flaw in this game!

No one has reported this problem before. I checked the PBP. The conditions seem to be applied correctly. Perhaps they simply aren't working properly. I created a bug report for Markus. Thanks!

[Crosley Field]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

I am sorry you can not see the forest for the trees. Enjoy the forest. It's beautiful in the fall.

Sorry, but fatal flaws that render a game to be taken more like an arcade game than a "serious" simulation is not "forest for the trees." Yes, I could stick my head in the sand and pretend that everything is wonderful, and that paying for each new version is something that I should automatically do without forethought, hoping that the next version will finally fix my "pet peeve" bug. But I'm not a lemming.

Since it seems that most people sim the games, and don't play fictional leagues, they probably don't see many of the flaws repeatedly showing up. But I'm sure they're still there just the same.

It seems that several of the same bugs have been in this game for several versions, and new versions of the game seem to focus more on adding new features than fixing very old problems. This is how the "big" game software companies conduct their business. I thought that OOTP was different, but I seem to have been mistaken.

[Crosley Field]

Originally Posted by pstrickert

No one has reported this problem before. I checked the PBP. The conditions seem to be applied correctly. Perhaps they simply aren't working properly. I created a bug report for Markus. Thanks!

Thanks. Hopefully it will receive some attention and bugs will be fixed.

[Shucker]

I have actually experienced the pitcher getting hurt on the third out before too. Before you bat it takes you to the lineup to replace the pitcher. I don't recall specifically whether it wouldn't let me put in a PH since that spot was due up that inning and required a pitcher in that spot, or whether I put in a PH that I was planning on using and then it wouldn't let him bat. Something like that but I knew I was momentarily frustrated.

I had that same thing happen this weekend and had the presence of mind to put in a tired relief pitcher that I didn't want to use anyway in case I could pinch hit for him. Turns out he didn't come up in the order and when I took the field the next inning I simply replaced him. Of course he showed up as unavailable from then on but I wasn't planning on using him anyway.

I guess the moral of my story is that yes, I got caught and frustrated once, but I am prepared for that rare situation going forward.

[Crosley Field]

Originally Posted by Shucker

I have actually experienced the pitcher getting hurt on the third out before too. Before you bat it takes you to the lineup to replace the pitcher. I don't recall specifically whether it wouldn't let me put in a PH since that spot was due up that inning and required a pitcher in that spot, or whether I put in a PH that I was planning on using and then it wouldn't let him bat. Something like that but I knew I was momentarily frustrated.

I had that same thing happen this weekend and had the presence of mind to put in a tired relief pitcher that I didn't want to use anyway in case I could pinch hit for him. Turns out he didn't come up in the order and when I took the field the next inning I simply replaced him. Of course he showed up as unavailable from then on but I wasn't planning on using him anyway.

I guess the moral of my story is that yes, I got caught and frustrated once, but I am prepared for that rare situation going forward.

My situation was different in that the pitcher was due to bat first in the bottom half of the inning, the game automatically substituted a PH for the pitcher, but wouldn't allow the PH to hit--the game wouldn't proceed until I replaced the PH the game had automatically substituted for the pitcher, even though the PH hadn't done anything.

In my scenario I lost one of my precious few bench players who hadn't done anything. This would NEVER happen in real life. Frustrating!

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by Crosley Field

My situation was different in that the pitcher was due to bat first in the bottom half of the inning, the game automatically substituted a PH for the pitcher, but wouldn't allow the PH to hit--the game wouldn't proceed until I replaced the PH the game had automatically substituted for the pitcher, even though the PH hadn't done anything.

I would certainly agree that that does indeed look like a bug. But it raises a bunch of questions. Normally, when a pitcher is injured in that last AB of an inning, he is immediately replaced by another pitcher (whether you want it or not -- not a bug, just an unavoidable dimension of the game design). This RP is automatically shown as having made one pitch. This happens before the game moves to the next half inning. The one pitch recorded by the RP allows you to legally take him out of the game and replace him with a PH in that next half inning, if you wish to do so. I have never seen the game put in a PH for an injured pitcher automatically. Ever. That's to say nothing of not allowing him to hit.

I think that has to be a bug in your copy of the game, or something very isolated like that. Markus would probably have to look at your game files to figure it out.

[TribeFanInNC]

Originally Posted by Crosley Field

...fatal flaws...

I think this is where we disagree. Fatal flaws are crashes, lost data, simulations that give us 0.23 ERAs or 96 HR seasons. OOTP handles 99+% of situations great.

The 'trees' are the stuff that happens 0.1% of the time or less. Like a pitcher getting hurt after a third out with that pitcher due up first in the next inning. I literally play out hundreds of games with every version and I can't think of the last time I saw that scenario. I know I've seen it, but it was probably 2 times ever.

Point being: don't let the little stuff (like 2-out RBIs or 2 wrong SAC scorings a year) ruin the experience of the game. It is fun, it is a game, enjoy it.

[Crosley Field]

Originally Posted by SteveP

I would certainly agree that that does indeed look like a bug. But it raises a bunch of questions. Normally, when a pitcher is injured in that last AB of an inning, he is immediately replaced by another pitcher (whether you want it or not -- not a bug, just an unavoidable dimension of the game design). This RP is automatically shown as having made one pitch. This happens before the game moves to the next half inning. The one pitch recorded by the RP allows you to legally take him out of the game and replace him with a PH in that next half inning, if you wish to do so. I have never seen the game put in a PH for an injured pitcher automatically. Ever. That's to say nothing of not allowing him to hit.

I think that has to be a bug in your copy of the game, or something very isolated like that. Markus would probably have to look at your game files to figure it out.

Why can't the game allow the user to make his own substitutions? Why would the game need to put in a replacement pitcher and not allow the user to make substitutions as they see fit? Doesn't make any sense to me.

It did indeed happen exactly as I described. No replacement pitcher--just immediately taken to the substitutions screen with a PH inserted for the pitcher, but not allowing the game to proceed without replacing the PH.

I don't know how or why my files would be any different from anyone else's. PC running Win XP Pro SP3, ootp11setup.exe (April 12, 2010), ootp11update.exe (11.0.3 - April 15, 2010), ootp11update.exe (11.1.8 - May 24, 2010), with all OOTP installers downloaded from the OOTP web site. I could send my installed and generated game files but that would take a LOT of time and bandwidth.

I doubt that Markus has the time or desire to look into such an isolated incident. This automatic replacement issue seems to be a long-standing bug.

[lt2cents]

Just want to say I have seen the problems described at the top of this thread. It is beyond frustrating to immersion players- I would like to see a year of updates given to focusing on these parts of the game.

(On the pitcher sub thing-- a possible workaround might be to change the sub player's position from PH to P to get the game to continue without forcing the second change right away. However this is not to take anything away from the plea to fix this properly and put substitution choices in the hands of the manager, not the AI.)

[Crosley Field]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

I think this is where we disagree. Fatal flaws are crashes, lost data, simulations that give us 0.23 ERAs or 96 HR seasons. OOTP handles 99+% of situations great.

The 'trees' are the stuff that happens 0.1% of the time or less. Like a pitcher getting hurt after a third out with that pitcher due up first in the next inning. I literally play out hundreds of games with every version and I can't think of the last time I saw that scenario. I know I've seen it, but it was probably 2 times ever.

Point being: don't let the little stuff (like 2-out RBIs or 2 wrong SAC scorings a year) ruin the experience of the game. It is fun, it is a game, enjoy it.

I guess our expectations for paid products are different. If it works for you, great. I just get very frustrated buying beta software that never gets fixed.

The concept of a baseball or (American) football management simulation game is very cool, and playing a good one is exactly how I'd like to spend my leisure time. The promise of OOTP is enticing, and it would be great fun if not for the bugs. I'd settle for a lot fewer bells and whistles (baseball cards, fancy graphics, sound, etc.) if the game's core worked correctly.

I've run into the auto-replacement for injured players at least 6 times in 1.5 seasons of play in OOTP 11. The same bug was there in the OOTP 8 FREE version. Very frustrating. It takes the fun out of playing the game, at least for me.

But my concern goes dar deeper. If the various bugs are at the core of the game--i.e. incorrect stats influencing the future performance or ratings of players--then how can the game be considered a "serious baseball management simulation"? It then becomes more like rolling dice to determine the outcome, without regard for stats, ratings, etc., instead of using artificial INTELLIGENCE. I might as well play an arcade game, and I HATE arcade games.

[Crosley Field]

Originally Posted by lt2cents

Just want to say I have seen the problems described at the top of this thread. It is beyond frustrating to immersion players- I would like to see a year of updates given to focusing on these parts of the game.

I agree. I won't buy another version of the game until this happens.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by Crosley Field

If the various bugs are at the core of the game--i.e. incorrect stats influencing the future performance or ratings of players

We probably disagree about the definition of "bug". The game is working as designed (except for the game putting a PH immediately in for an injured pitcher -- which is a pretty strange bug). You may not like the design. Markus may well wish it could work differently himself, for all I know. But it is what it is. Still, I can't quite understand your leap of logic here. You may have a misconception on how ratings are created in the game.

And, yes, as someone who helps out with the support system, people do get isolated problems in their copy of the game. Some, like you perhaps, assume everyone is having the same problems and just ignoring them. But it's worth considering the possibility of a different explanation.

[RchW]

Originally Posted by SteveP

We probably disagree about the definition of "bug". The game is working as designed (except for the game putting a PH immediately in for an injured pitcher -- which is a pretty strange bug). You may not like the design. Markus may well wish it could work differently himself, for all I know. But it is what it is. Still, I can't quite understand your leap of logic here. You may have a misconception on how ratings are created in the game.

And, yes, as someone who helps out with the support system, people do get isolated problems in their copy of the game. Some, like you perhaps, assume everyone is having the same problems and just ignoring them. But it's worth considering the possibility of a different explanation.

I think he means "how players are rated" by the AI. So if a stat is incorrectly high and the AI evaluation is weighted to stats the player evaluation may be off.

I'm trying to think what stats could be out enough to significantly change a player evaluation though.

[CONN CHRIS]

The one thing that does bug me is the way that earned v. unearned runs are credited in real time as the inning un-folds rather than at an inning's end when they can be properly assessed.

I think that I read elsewhere that this has to be the case (i.e. on an as-you-go basis) due to the way it is coded. I don't really understand any of that but the bottom line seems to be that un-earned and earned runs can't be properly credited (absolutely) and that the amount of difference is sufficiently low so as not to bother many people.


Edit - by the way, this doesn't ruin the game for me, it simply annoys me.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

The one thing that does bug me is the way that earned v. unearned runs are credited in real time as the inning un-folds rather than at an inning's end when they can be properly assessed.

Actually not. But in any event, Markus has apparently taken another crack at trying to get this little bit of programming to work correctly (within reason -- he isn't trying to get all the really rare, complicated situations to record correctly). I assume that will be out with the next patch. Not sure how much of it has been tested yet either (because it takes a lot of playing time to do that), so I imagine even after it's out we may not know for a little while how well it is getting all of these recorded right. But something to look forward to.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by SteveP

Actually not. But in any event, Markus has apparently taken another crack at trying to get this little bit of programming to work correctly (within reason -- he isn't trying to get all the really rare, complicated situations to record correctly). I assume that will be out with the next patch. Not sure how much of it has been tested yet either (because it takes a lot of playing time to do that), so I imagine even after it's out we may not know for a little while how well it is getting all of these recorded right. But something to look forward to.

Actually not what...

Not recording them in real time? It sure looks that way. A pitcher's ER and ERA change after each batter without respect to if the ER/UER can be determined at that point. At least that's what it looks like to my perhaps un-educated eyes. Then of course there are those situations where it doesn't even do it right despite it being knowable at that point.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by TribeFanInNC

I think this is where we disagree. Fatal flaws are crashes, lost data, simulations that give us 0.23 ERAs or 96 HR seasons. OOTP handles 99+% of situations great.

The 'trees' are the stuff that happens 0.1% of the time or less. Like a pitcher getting hurt after a third out with that pitcher due up first in the next inning. I literally play out hundreds of games with every version and I can't think of the last time I saw that scenario. I know I've seen it, but it was probably 2 times ever.

Point being: don't let the little stuff (like 2-out RBIs or 2 wrong SAC scorings a year) ruin the experience of the game. It is fun, it is a game, enjoy it.

I have to agree with TribeFan on this. I play out at least one game in every series, and I have not seen any of the problems the OP mentions. I would also respectfully urge him to alert the powers that be to any problems but not get hung up on them. The flaws he describes may be irritating, but stuff that happens 0.1% of the time is hardly fatal.

[SteveP]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Actually not what...

Not recording them in real time? It sure looks that way. A pitcher's ER and ERA change after each batter without respect to if the ER/UER can be determined at that point. At least that's what it looks like to my perhaps un-educated eyes. Then of course there are those situations where it doesn't even do it right despite it being knowable at that point.

I misunderstood your post. Some people have theorized about how this programming works and why it has been making certain mistakes. I was reading your post that way. But you are right: if ERs are scored, the game will record them as such at the time. Also, if a guy scores who should have been out, or if runs are scored after what would have been the 3rd out, the game knows not to score them as ERs. What we are looking for after the patch is this: does the game hold off on scoring ERs which are uncertain, and how well does the game resolve these when the inning is over (or the pitcher is replaced).

Hope that's clearer.