Are you ok with OOTP11 not having any more patches?

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

All of which have been reported, and some of which we were assured had been fixed in OOTP 11."

Now did Markus assure us they were fixed or just "addressed"? There's a difference y'know!!!

[slic1149]

I rarely post here because I play the game "my" way and rarely have to deal with bugs. Once in a blue moon one will show up that makes me a little crazy but for the most part it doesn't happen. This doesn't mean I couldn't get upset if something came along that messed up my world. I'm lucky, nothing has.

However, I can't help thinking about this whole concept of "fixing all of the bugs" and not including any new features. Most of my career was spent in the advertising business and I'm trying to imagine writing copy for this new product. Perhaps it would sound something like this.

OOTP12 New Features

Zip.
Nada.
Not one darn thing.

Bug fixes

Well we hope we got them all. I mean, we've been working on this for the last six month's, Boy, I hope we got them all.

Price $69.99 We had to raise the price by $30 because with this feature list we estimate we will lose about 2/3 of our business and we just hope that all of those folks who have been complaining about bugs will shell out the extra money because, Lord knows, no one else will. Don't get me wrong, we are still going to lose an arm and two legs doing this, so at this point OOTP13 is a pretty iffy prospect, on the other hand OOTP12 should be, hopefully, bug free.

Cheers,

I can't bear to sign this.

[Killing Time]

Originally Posted by slic1149

I rarely post here because I play the game "my" way and rarely have to deal with bugs. Once in a blue moon one will show up that makes me a little crazy but for the most part it doesn't happen. This doesn't mean I couldn't get upset if something came along that messed up my world. I'm lucky, nothing has.

However, I can't help thinking about this whole concept of "fixing all of the bugs" and not including any new features. Most of my career was spent in the advertising business and I'm trying to imagine writing copy for this new product. Perhaps it would sound something like this.

OOTP12 New Features

Zip.
Nada.
Not one darn thing.

Bug fixes

Well we hope we got them all. I mean, we've been working on this for the last six month's, Boy, I hope we got them all.

Price $69.99 We had to raise the price by $30 because with this feature list we estimate we will lose about 2/3 of our business and we just hope that all of those folks who have been complaining about bugs will shell out the extra money because, Lord knows, no one else will. Don't get me wrong, we are still going to lose an arm and two legs doing this, so at this point OOTP13 is a pretty iffy prospect, on the other hand OOTP12 should be, hopefully, bug free.

Cheers,

I can't bear to sign this.

This is silly. Version 6.5 was a bug fix version. It sold well and remains popular.

[slic1149]

Originally Posted by Killing Time

This is silly. Version 6.5 was a bug fix version. It sold well and remains popular.

Version 6.5 also included some new features. In addition it sold for $9.99 and was basically a tide us over until the new interface comes out version. If Markus put this out as a .5 version at a low price it might work, but then folks would be screaming bloody murder because the main version would show up in August. If Markus tried to put out OOTP12 as a regular priced "bug fix" version then I think my copy is pretty realistic. Comparing 6.5 to a full priced new version is comparing apples to oranges.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by slic1149

Version 6.5 also included some new features. In addition it sold for $9.99 and was basically a tide us over until the new interface comes out version. If Markus put this out as a .5 version at a low price it might work, but then folks would be screaming bloody murder because the main version would show up in August. If Markus tried to put out OOTP12 as a regular priced "bug fix" version then I think my copy is pretty realistic. Comparing 6.5 to a full priced new version is comparing apples to oranges.

Your arguments ooze with support for mediocrity. According to them there is never a time to fix bugs. Having watched my wife work a near all-nighter this week to fix a bug that popped up that wasn't even hers I find the dedication to mediocrity instead of excellence disgusting. Only on this board have I ever in my life encountered users so blind that they act as enablers of buggy software.

When is it time to fix bugs? Always. Immediately. When they are found.

[ukhotstove]

End of the day if you have a problem with a product and feel it isn't being addressed then don't buy it, I had a problem with a store this week and felt my complaint wasn't taken care of so they will not be getting anymore of my hard earned cash.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

End of the day if you have a problem with a product and feel it isn't being addressed then don't buy it, I had a problem with a store this week and felt my complaint wasn't taken care of so they will not be getting anymore of my hard earned cash.

You are missing the point.

We want to buy it and love the game, we are pushing to get it BETTER! That's what the forums are for. To express our opinions, ideas and make suggestions.

A product with less bugs will sell better, obviously.

[ukhotstove]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

You are missing the point.

We want to buy it and love the game, we are pushing to get it BETTER! That's what the forums are for. To express our opinions, ideas and make suggestions.

A product with less bugs will sell better, obviously.

I don't think I am missing the point, people have said various things are making OOTP unplayable for them and certain bugs make the end product worthless. Would you keep on buying the same product from a store if it didn't work to your satisfaction ? I know I wouldn't but I don't have a problem with what I get out of OOTP.

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by ukhotstove

I don't think I am missing the point, people have said various things are making OOTP unplayable for them and certain bugs make the end product worthless. Would you keep on buying the same product from a store if it didn't work to your satisfaction ? I know I wouldn't but I don't have a problem with what I get out of OOTP.

You just don't give up on something you really like. Instead you keep on insisting that they fix it properly and that's what a lot of users are doing here.

[Malleus Dei]

UKHotStove: Wrong. If something important to you fails, you fix it yourself, get it fixed, or get the manufacturer to fix it. OOTP is important to us in the frustrated 30% (by definition, for anyone who the game wasn't important to who encountered the bugs and was bothered by them is already gone and is not on here fighting to make the game work correctly). We in the 30% don't want to abandon OOTP; we want it fixed so the stats are correct and the other legacy bugs that have been frustrating us for version after version (the pitcher substitution bug is a good example of this) are finally eradicated.

Since when is it unreasonable to ask that significant, recurring, documented bugs in a software program be fixed? When did their existence become acceptable to people?

THE STATISTICS GENERATED BY THE CURRENT VERSION OF OOTP ARE NOT CORRECT. Earned runs are not being recorded correctly. RBI's are not being recorded correctly. In a baseball simulation the statistics have to - have to, have to, have to - be correct. Right now OOTP's are not. This needs to be fixed. What part of this do you in the other 70% not understand?

[slic1149]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Your arguments ooze with support for mediocrity. According to them there is never a time to fix bugs. Having watched my wife work a near all-nighter this week to fix a bug that popped up that wasn't even hers I find the dedication to mediocrity instead of excellence disgusting. Only on this board have I ever in my life encountered users so blind that they act as enablers of buggy software.

When is it time to fix bugs? Always. Immediately. When they are found.

Calling OOTP mediocre is simply not going to fly from a guy who has played the game for almost a decade, helped hundreds of people get more enjoyment out of the game, and spent what has to be thousands of hours involved in making every aspect of the game better. I can't believe you would have done that with a product you consider mediocre. As I have said my gaming experience with OOTP is relatively bug free, now I understand that others have a less than satisfying experience because of long term bugs. My point is that merely fixing all of the bugs and then attempting to release that game as a new version seems like a quick way to go out of business. I respect both your knowledge of the game which is much greater than mine and your dedication to having as complete and bug free edition as possible. ALERT, run on sentence ahead. However, it seems like in your frustration with long term problems, you sometimes forget the realities of marketing a niche product such as OOTP, and the fact that attracting new customers and maintaing its current base is predicated on not just improving the current iteration, but also adding features that enhance game play, and encourage those who are not experiencing your level of frustration to continue their financial support. MD, we want the same thing I just think that economic realities will make Markus continue to push the envelope when it comes to implementing new features. That means, the chance of a completely bug free game is somewhat remote. With that being said, if a bug crops up that ruins my game play I will insist on it's removal just as you are demanding the fixes you think are over due and necessary. Please reserve your well known surliness for someone who disagrees with you, I don't. I'm just attempting to take a look at the big picture.

[ukhotstove]

Just maybe, just maybe, just maybe the 70% are still having fun playing the game despite problems with the game. Heck the LBA doesn't have a stat to hang it's hat on but the 20 owners have been having a great time, sometimes there's a bigger picture than just a stat line.

[Orcin]

I am very new here, so I don't know the history. I am curious about the stat bugs. Just how wrong are the ER's and RBI's? Are we talking about 10% per player per season, or the occasional error that might make a few players off by 1-2% for a season?

Materiality should be considered in a business decision. If these bugs don't alter the career stats in a material way, then it might not be worth the expense to fix them. If it is a huge discrepancy for many players, then maybe I should re-consider using this game myself until it is fixed (if ever). I am in the 70% by the way.

[Malleus Dei]

Originally Posted by slic1149

Calling OOTP mediocre is simply not going to fly from a guy who has played the game for almost a decade, helped hundreds of people get more enjoyment out of the game, and spent what has to be thousands of hours involved in making every aspect of the game better.

Okay, I've done all that, you've got me cold - except that I have played the game for over a decade (I was one of the very first customers for OOTP 1), but that's any easy mistake to make looking at join dates if you don't know that this isn't the original OOTP board - which it isn't.

However, I didn't call the *game* mediocre. I wrote that "Your arguments ooze with support for mediocrity." There's a big difference there.

Originally Posted by slic1149

I can't believe you would have done that with a product you consider mediocre.

I love OOTP. That being said, I expect and am doing my best to encourage excellence from it. I also love my wife, my children, my grandchildren, and my dogs (and even my BMW as well!) but I expect and encourage excellence from all of them too.

And I'm not mad at anybody in the 70%. I seriously disagree with them and I really wish they'd change their minds (or let me change them for them! ), but there's no anger involved.

[DWK]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

You are missing the point.

We want to buy it and love the game, we are pushing to get it BETTER! That's what the forums are for. To express our opinions, ideas and make suggestions.

A product with less bugs will sell better, obviously.

Your right everyone is missing the point

[slic1149]

Originally Posted by Malleus Dei

Okay, I've done all that, you've got me cold - except that I have played the game for over a decade (I was one of the very first customers for OOTP 1), but that's any easy mistake to make looking at join dates if you don't know that this isn't the original OOTP board - which it isn't.

However, I didn't call the *game* mediocre. I wrote that "Your arguments ooze with support for mediocrity." There's a big difference there.



I love OOTP. That being said, I expect and am doing my best to encourage excellence from it. I also love my wife, my children, my grandchildren, and my dogs (and even my BMW as well!) but I expect and encourage excellence from all of them too.

And I'm not mad at anybody in the 70%. I seriously disagree with them and I really wish they'd change their minds (or let me change them for them! ), but there's no anger involved.

Just because you are a stickler for accuracy I said you had been playing for almost a decade, not over a decade. I was certainly not calling into question your love of or commitment to OOTP, that is evident in your efforts on its behalf. My concern is the concept that Markus could or should release a new edition of OOTP12 that consists of nothing but bug fixes, with no new features. That simply sounds like professional suicide and an almost certain way for the product line to become extinct. If the managment team were willing to release a complete bug fix edition as a .5 product at a reduced price I would certainly be one of its first customers, even though my playing style doesn't force me to deal with the problems some other customers have.

Whoops, I misread your original post sorry for my first sentence I should have paid more attention. Yes I did realize there was another board I was a member of that one also. My post count is paltry but I have played the game since OOTP2. Like I said before my playing style undoubtedly effects my response to the whole "bug" problem because I don't have to face a bug very often.

[Killing Time]

The game's not mediocre. But the bug fixing is.

[spitfire]

Originally Posted by slic1149

My point is that merely fixing all of the bugs and then attempting to release that game as a new version seems like a quick way to go out of business.

Ok, so how 'bout fixing the bugs and adding some new features. Think Markus could stay in business that way?

[slic1149]

Originally Posted by spitfire

Ok, so how 'bout fixing the bugs and adding some new features. Think Markus could stay in business that way?

That sounds like a pretty effective business model to me.

[pstrickert]

Originally Posted by Killing Time

The game's not mediocre. But the bug fixing is.

IMO, MH seemed to lose interest in OOTP11, once it was released to the public. He repeatedly scaled down his plans for post-release patches. I, for one, expressed my disappointment. Did no good. OOTP is sometimes compared to Puresim, and Markus to Shaun. OOTP, IMO, is a much better product. But Shaun (as far as I can tell) is much less patient with outstanding bugs.