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Old 05-10-2013, 06:58 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstaSyneri View Post
Ah, the community is divided. Into two conferences maybe? Now we only need a few more divisions of opinion, and we can make a league out of it ;-).

More seriously: What I really want is a manual where I can find the information I need (mostly about the customization options, in my case).

Yes, a well-filled Wiki would be great - but it's out of the scope of what I can hope to achieve (even with the help of the five veterans I am looking for).

Looks like I am between a rock and a hard place ;-).

When I clamor that the manual isn't up date, I am being bashed that the manual is more or less done by the community.

When I ask the community to help write the missing manual parts, I get bashed for trying to involve others, or that the company producing the game should be doing the manual in the first place.

Duh.

Where lies the solution?
My comment certainly wasn't a bash, but understand your frustration. Just trying to offer some suggestions to help you get rolling with this.

Perhaps you have a list or partial list of specific areas you feel need the most attention in the manual? If you do, post it here. Some people might see it and think, "oh, that's not hard, I'll add a bit to it."

Maybe I'm reaching here too.

It's always difficult to get volunteers, but don't give up. If you start showing some actual work done on it, people might be more inclined to help. I certainly would pitch in as time allowed me to.


Hope you have success with this.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:54 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
If you're serious about updating this, you may also want to consider this:

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...pwiki-com.html
That certainly seems to be the trend in computer gaming these days. I know that the wikis for Paradox games (like Crusader Kings II) are far more informative and thorough than the manuals produced by the company. I'd be happy to contribute what I can to a revival of the OOTPWiki, although these days I'm still trying to figure out all the new stuff in v.14.
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Old 05-10-2013, 10:12 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bluenoser View Post
My comment certainly wasn't a bash, but understand your frustration. Just trying to offer some suggestions to help you get rolling with this.

Perhaps you have a list or partial list of specific areas you feel need the most attention in the manual? If you do, post it here. Some people might see it and think, "oh, that's not hard, I'll add a bit to it."
Bridge under the water ;-).

Yeah, this kind of illustrates the hen and egg dilemma here. It would be my next step to identify the missing/heavily outdated manual parts, but even that already is quite a bit of work and I would have prefered to have a few sign-ups before that.

But given the number of replies here, at least the topic gets a lot of attention so I might go ahead with posting a small list like you suggested over the week-end.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:18 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstaSyneri View Post
Bridge under the water ;-).

Yeah, this kind of illustrates the hen and egg dilemma here. It would be my next step to identify the missing/heavily outdated manual parts, but even that already is quite a bit of work and I would have prefered to have a few sign-ups before that.

But given the number of replies here, at least the topic gets a lot of attention so I might go ahead with posting a small list like you suggested over the week-end.
I seem to recall you mentioned something about the customization areas of the game being one of your main frustrations. That might be a good place to start. I spend a lot of time customizing my leagues when I set them up, so there's probably a couple things I could tackle.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:22 AM   #25
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One other suggestion. Around the Forums, especially the MOD Forums, are several tutorials on how to do various customization things in OOTP, such as the one written by Dreifort (hope I spelled that correctly) on editing the World XML.

I would contact the originators of these tutorials and request permission to add them to the OOTPWiki, if in fact you decide that getting the Wiki going again is the way you want to approach this.
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Old 05-10-2013, 11:25 AM   #26
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One problem I see is that there are parts of a manual/wiki that only the developers like Markus and Andreas could complete. For example, someone in the community could take a stab at what we *think* is going on with all the numbers on a team's "Front Office" tab, but it always seems like there are discrepancies that the community can't reconcile, and only the developers could probably explain (e.g. numbers for budget room not adding up, next year's payroll not matching between "Finances" and Salaries", etc.)

So while the community could probably put together a pretty thorough overview of the game, the screens, the configuration options, etc., we would still need the developers to be willing to fill in some of those behind-the-scenes details.
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Old 05-10-2013, 07:49 PM   #27
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Re the wiki, there is SO MUCH valuable information in these forums that it seems that some simple copying and pasting - and/or linking to certain threads (even specific posts) - could be a good way to get the wiki off and running... Just a thought...
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:17 PM   #28
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Given the quality of the material available on these forums, do we really need a wiki or a player-made manual? I mean, think about it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 05-10-2013, 08:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Given the quality of the material available on these forums, do we really need a wiki or a player-made manual? I mean, think about it.
Well, we need something. The Wiki certainly could use some updating as well (given that even the logo is from version 12...).
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:24 PM   #30
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Given the quality of the material available on these forums, do we really need a wiki or a player-made manual? I mean, think about it.
I don't know about the need for a manual, but I was thinking that the wiki would be a good way to organize the quality forum-provided material.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:51 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstaSyneri View Post
Well, we need something.
And we HAVE something. And I submit that it works.

The wiki has been neglected for a reason.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 05-10-2013, 09:53 PM   #32
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I don't know about the need for a manual, but I was thinking that the wiki would be a good way to organize the quality forum-provided material.
If it was more effective than these forums, would it have ever been neglected?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 05-10-2013, 10:24 PM   #33
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Well, we need something. The Wiki certainly could use some updating as well (given that even the logo is from version 12...).
If only the wiki could be edited by the person wanting to update it....
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Old 05-11-2013, 05:18 AM   #34
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I don't know about the need for a manual, but I was thinking that the wiki would be a good way to organize the quality forum-provided material.
Yes, but from what I see, the Wiki is in no way better than the manual at this point. Who has admin access to it?

Quote:
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If it was more effective than these forums, would it have ever been neglected?
Yes, it would. The basic tendency of people is to want their problems solved, not to contribute to a solution that might help the next one having the same problem. It's called egotism and it's in all of us.

This forum is only "effective", but not necessarily efficient.

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If only the wiki could be edited by the person wanting to update it....
See above: Who has admin access?
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Old 05-11-2013, 06:50 AM   #35
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I'm just going to throw my in the ring here. And let me preface this with Yes there is a lot of Info here on the forum, there are great people here willing to answer questions or let someone know who can answer their questions. There is no reason you can't read or be explained everything you need to know about the OOTP Games here on these forums the only thing that would prevent you from getting the info you need is a lack of effort by the information hungry consumer.

But that does NOT excuse OOTP as a company from producing a complete product for the consumer, and that would include a manual for what is easily the most complete, comprehensive and in-depth Baseball game on the market.

Quite Frankly it is beyond my comprehension that anyone (Vet or noobie) doesn't understand that concept and why the consumer not only expects a manual but deserves one.

And to you patrons that continually defend OOTP for not having one produced on a regular basis (That means updated with EVERY VERSION) because they are a small company with limited recourses or whatever reason is given is kind of embarrassing.

If you people went to the store and bought a product off the shelf and the assembly manual or the instruction manual's were incomplete or missing you wouldn't be ok with that just because the company was smaller and didn't have the funds ,manpower or resources to produce the written material that is so vital to your purchase.

Do I personally need a manual? NO But there obviously people who do need one and most importantly there are people who WANT one and that reason alone should be enough for OOTP to make an effort to produce one instead of coming up with excuses why there isn't one than having the OOTP Playing masses back them up for a poor business decision.

That is all, now I have to go play OOTP 14 and drink my coffee,

Have a great day!
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Old 05-11-2013, 07:53 AM   #36
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I, for one, wasn't bashing you. I just got a chuckle from you. I say proceed with your community-manual idea. If you want to get it off the ground why don't your start with a good strong chapter and show people you are serious.
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Old 05-11-2013, 08:22 AM   #37
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On a personal note, I think having a up-to-date manual, or something like a Wiki is a very good idea especially for new players like myself.

While I have owned 06 and 11, I have never really been able to find my way around greatly (albeit I barely played them). Since I purchased 14 yesterday though I want to properly get into this version. While I know that a lot of things are self explanatory, and can easily be found on here, it would be good to have something where I can go straight to for help, because first experience playing the game is daunting with how in depth it is (which isn't a bad thing).

For example when starting a new game, it'd be good to know what each feature does, or how you can customise the game etc so that if I do come across something on the forums and think, yeah I'd love to use that feature, I wouldn't have to start a new game then.
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Old 05-11-2013, 09:23 AM   #38
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I, for one, wasn't bashing you. I just got a chuckle from you. I say proceed with your community-manual idea. If you want to get it off the ground why don't your start with a good strong chapter and show people you are serious.
Yes. Lead off with some honest hard work.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 05-11-2013, 10:23 AM   #39
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Given the quality of the material available on these forums, do we really need a wiki or a player-made manual? I mean, think about it.
The forum is an excellent resource, but it's not organized like a manual, so a person needs to search for an appropriate topic, or else start a thread that may or may not be answered. If I'm playing a game and run into a problem, I want to solve that problem right now. I don't want to wait a day or two for someone to answer my question on the forum. Manuals and forums co-exist for a reason. I mean, think about it.
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Old 05-11-2013, 10:38 AM   #40
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But that does NOT excuse OOTP as a company from producing a complete product for the consumer, and that would include a manual for what is easily the most complete, comprehensive and in-depth Baseball game on the market.

Quite Frankly it is beyond my comprehension that anyone (Vet or noobie) doesn't understand that concept and why the consumer not only expects a manual but deserves one.
I agree in principle, but that doesn't seem to be the way things are going in the computer gaming world.

I've purchased plenty of games over the years, and the manuals just keep getting less and less informative. The task of instructing players on game mechanics and strategies has gradually been handed off (either intentionally or not) to the players themselves. That has been facilitated by the development of forums, the creation of Wikis, and by gamers who produce "how to play" videos that they post on Youtube.

You can say that the companies that do this are abdicating their responsibility to create a manual, or you can say that they are enhancing their product by relying on the "wisdom of the crowd."

That may be a good thing or a bad thing, but it's the way things are now. It's just one aspect of the overall trend toward the democratization of information. Manuals are an example of the top-down model of information that is being supplanted by the bottom-up model pioneered by Wikipedia. Both models can co-exist, but there are a lot of advantages to the bottom-up model that OOTP hasn't fully taken advantage of.
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