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Old 12-31-2009, 11:57 AM   #61
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VIC BROWN

I'm not certain where this photo came from---I think either Cube or the Corner Work site.
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Old 12-31-2009, 02:21 PM   #62
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California Dreamers-Jimmy "King" Fletcher

Another heavyweight during the Ali Exile period of the late 60s fighting out of the Golden State, the "King" never got close to the crown! Not really a knockout puncher, Fletcher tended to wear his opponents down and had decent power.

His biggest wins were against an increasingly shopworn Amos Lincoln and a far over-the-hill Brian London. Not much on defensive skills, his jaw was not made of iron but far from glass. He was only counted out twice. Bonavena stiffed him in one round in their 1968 meeting.

The other kayo loss was to Mel Turnbow!! Mel took him out in the fourth, sending the King to the canvas twice in the round. Now that gives Fletcher the dubious distinction of being the only person knocked out by Mel Turnbow. Oh the humanity!!! (Mel's only other early win was a second round TKO over Jesse Goudy in Turnbow's first pro fight).

Fletcher retired in 1970 after dropping a unanimous decision to Henry Clark for the California State heavyweight belt. He returned, however, five years later at the age of thirty-three for three more fights. He won his first two matches, but in 1976 he suffered a fifth round TKO loss to Billy Joiner and retired for good.
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Old 01-01-2010, 09:20 PM   #63
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Wish I'd waited a couple days more before using the database Vic Brown in Chuvalo's comeback fight in my Page uni.

I'd figured on using him a couple more times before he hangs 'em up, so I'll check out your rating for use in those fights. Nice pic, also ...
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Old 01-02-2010, 10:57 AM   #64
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Prime Cuts-Tony Doyle

Tony Doyle, a 1960s heavyweight, is a good illustration of the differences between the career/cumulative ratings that are represented as prime in the default data pool and a rating that's actually based upon a fighter's best years---his prime.


Doyle began his professional career in 1963 at the age of nineteen. Although young in years, he had decent boxing skills due to several years as a successful amateur. Throughout the 60s, he was somewhat active, fighting almost every two months.

Following a TKO loss to Joe Bugner in 1972, it would seem that his interest and abilities as the relate to boxing declined. After almost a year off, he returned to the ring to fight just five times until he retired just before he turned thirty-one.

In that closing period, his record was 1-4. He was stopped by Jerry Quarry and Mike Weaver, kayoed by Howard Smith, and dropped a decision to Johnny Boudreux. His lone win was a tuneup ten round decision
over Dick Gosha.

Dolye's rating was revised in the default pool this past April and in most categories is pretty much the same as the one that I've posted below. Yet if you were to sim Doyle separately with the two ratings, you'd wind up with markedly different results.

The key difference here deal with the chin ratings. The default rating has Doyle at 3 for knockdowns and 4 for knockouts. I rate him during his prime at a 2 for each category.

During his twelve year career, Doyle was stopped six times. Four of those stoppages took place in his final six fights when he was past his prime. During his peak years he was kayoed in the last round by Jimmy Ellis in their 1971 meeting and was beaten into a second round TKO loss to Joe Frazier four years earlier.

In his prime he was in the ring with Quarry, Joey Orbillo, and Manual Ramos, sluggers of some means. Doyle lost those fights but went the distance. Which brings up the second difference between the default pool's cumulative rating and the prime rating I've put together---the CF.

Doyle's defalut CF is 8 versus a boxer and 7 against a slugger. For his prime, I levelled the rating out to 7 against both. As I indicated above, Dolyle could go the distance with a slugger in a losing effort, but he also had his problems with boxers as well.

Ellis knocked him out, Joe Bugner stopped him, James J. Woody decisioned him in all three of their meetings, and he dropped a unanimous nod to Larry Middleton.

Just to give you the opposite side of the coin, besides the losses to sluggers already mentioned, he held Quarry to a draw and stopped Amos Lincoln. I should also mention that his 1966 loss to Orbillo was a ten round split-decision. Among the lesser sluggers of the day he halted Vic Brown and decisioned Jack O'Halloran.

Once more, I'm not saying that the default rating is wrong. I'm just pointing out that it really is wrongly labeled. It's a career/cumulative rating which is indeed accurate as an overall assessment of Doyle's twelve year career.

If you were to do an historical recreation of Jerry Quarry's career, for example, and used the default rating, the results would be markedly different from what actually took place. Given the career chin ratings, Doyle would have a very slim chance of going the distance with Quarry, let alone hold him to a draw. The typical result would usually be what happened in their final meeting, when Doyle was past his prime---Quarry by a TKO in four.

As a point of interest, the site below is from the February 21, 1966 issue of Sports Illustated and provides a nice set of thumbnail sketches of the young heavyweights of the day. Besides Doyle, James J. Woody, Frazier, Ron Marsh, Orbillo, and Buster Mathis are all profiled.

Jerry Quarry will have plenty of company on the way up. - 02.21.66 - SI Vault
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Old 01-04-2010, 06:13 PM   #65
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Sixties Also-Rans: Tod Herring

Herring was your typical Texas heavyweight. A tough, mean brawler who didn't move backwards. At 6'3" he was tall and rangy and could pack a wallop.

After beating up the local competition in the Houston area for a few years, Herring moved his way slowly up the heavyweight ladder in the early sixties. By the middle of the decade he was fighting in the upper ranks but sort of hit the glass ceiling.

He faced the division's elder statesmen in the form of Floyd Patterson, Cleveland Williams, and Zora Folley. All were past their primes but each halted Herring. That was pretty much the way you beat Tod. He only lost six fights out of a total of thirty-three, and five of the losses were by way of an early exit.

In addiition to the above, Herring was also halted by Tony Alongi and Elmer Rush. But Herring was never counted out. All the stoppages were by way of the TKO.

He had no real defensive abilities to speak of and was willing to trade with the men he faced. He only went the distance seven times in his twenty-seven wins.

Despite his power, he seemed to have trouble with guys who had some boxing skills. Glass jaws like Bill McMurray, Sonny Moore, and Tunney Hunsaker were able to elude his power for ten rounds in losing efforts to Herring.

After being stopped in three straight fights (Patterson, Rush, and Williams), his career was pretty much over in the middle of 1966. He did come back a year later for one more fight which he won with a TKO over the misnamed Jack Johnson.

I had posted the picture below at some point in the last year.
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Old 01-05-2010, 02:06 PM   #66
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The Street Figthin' Man-Leroy Caldwell

Unlike most pro boxers, Leroy Caldwell never laced up a pair of gloves as an amateur. A native of Milwaukee, Caldwell relocated to New Orleans where his reputation as a tough street fighter garnered him the attention of a local boxing impresario who turned him into a pro boxer 1969.

Unfortuantely, Caldwell paid a heavy price for his days as a New Orleans street tough. He busted up his right hand so many times in those "unsanctioned" contests that it was virtually of no use to him throughout his professional career which ran sixteen years.

Until he retired in 1985, Leroy relied almost exclusively on his left jab along with his ability to move around the squared circle. This latter talent made him somewhat of a "greased pig" in the boxing ring. He didn't own a particularly stong jaw, so if you caught him, you could put him away. The problem was catching him. If you didn't you were in for the long haul.

He went the distance holding Jose Urtain, Tony Doyle, Kevin Isaac and Trevor Berbick all to draws. George Foreman, Earnie Shavers, Oscar Bonavena, and Gerrie Coetzee took him out early, but Pinklon Thomas needed to go into the tenth round to stop Caldwell in 1979.

Leroy dropped decisions to Stan Ward, David Bey, Big John Tate, and Pierre Coetzer.

He was thrown into stiff competition early on in his career and suffered stoppages at the hands of Cleveland Williams, Terry Daniels, and Roy "Cookie" Wallace. But Leroy was a student of the game and a smart fighter ultimately returned to winning by making the most of his limited assets.

From the early 1970s forward, Calwell was a trail horse for young prospects, and it was under those circumstances that he met Foreman, Shavers, Ward, Thomas, and Berbick. He also dropped a five round nod to Ron Lyle who was just starting a boxing career following his release from prison.

A journeyman in the true sense of the word going from Milwaukee to New Orleans to Mobile to Texas, Caldwell settled in Las Vegas in the late 1970s where he remained until the end of his pro career. He actually won the Nevada state heavyweight title in 1981 by defeating John Williams who used the ring alias of "Rocky Young" for the match. What happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas!

Besides his impressive resume of foes, he was also a frequent sparring partner spending a number of years with Bob Foster and preparing Gerry Cooney for his match agaist Larry Holmes. Upon retiring, he operated a gym and trained a number of young fighters, both men and women, including his son, Caleb.

A quick not on the ratings I assigned for Conditioning and Intellect. I gave Caldwell the max in both. Not only was he extremely smart in the ring, he also kept himself in excellent phsyical condition. With repspect to career adjustments, I personally would advise using Post-Prime or End with Caldwell given these factors.

Here's a link to a very interesting article on Calwell's career and his personal life.

Leroy Caldwell: Subtle and Quiet Dignity

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Old 01-08-2010, 04:54 PM   #67
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Conn Chris Templates

I was initially dubious when Chris posted his "sub-zero" templates the other week on Bear's Tomato Can thread. I've been putzing around with a rating for 1960s heavyweight Terry Krueger and have started to look at what Chris has come up with in a different light.

With this particular thread, I've spent a considerable amount of time "trawling" through 1960s heavyweights whom I'm either revisiting or rating for the first time. As Chris pointed out, there's a wide gap in the zero rated fighters. My response in rating some of these guys is to "boost" them up to a higher grade, which in most instances seems to work.

The TBCB 2.0 Manual's statement on rating boxers reads, "CF ratings should not dip below 4." In the past, I've pretty much followed this standard. But the problem is that when you really start dipping lower into the ranks, you find yourself going through contortions with the other variables if you lock yourself into the CF of 4 principle.

This really hit me as I worked on Krueger's rating this week. Of his 34 wins, 33 were by knockout, but the knockouts were against what I would call "cardboard cutouts" (with really one exception). Generally, I found that if I set him up against created opponents with the worst chin ratings but with a CF of 4, I had to give Krueger an HP of 8 or greater for him to take them out early as he did in real life. This in turn presented a problem when I matched him against higher caliber boxers.

Well, I think you get my point without me going on any further. I'm reposting the Conn Chris templates and suggest that those of you who are inclined to rate your own fighters take a look at what Chris has come up with.
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Old 01-09-2010, 10:23 AM   #68
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Prof -

I'm a novice at rating fighters or tweaking ratings, and was wondering what you, as well as those reading, think of the Mayweather and Pacquiao ratings in the db. Given circumstances, it looks like this might be a good one for my 'Shoulda but Didna' thread, but I want to take a good look at the ratings before doing so.

Their welter ratings look pretty accurate, but I have a few areas I'm wondering about.

---Pacquiao has a hp of 8, while Mayweather is a 7. Floyd can crack when he wants to, as shown by the hook that floored Marquez, but rarely does. Is Pacquiao high enough, given the two knockdowns against Cotto? Is Floyd too high?

---Mayweather is also a 7 for aggressiveness and killer instinct. That's the same rating Sugar Ray Leonard had at welter, which seems odd. Floyd can be lowered to 6 in both categories without lowering his overall 13. For that matter, his hp can also be cut to 6, along with aggressiveness and killer instinct, without lowering the 13.

I'm going to take a few days to consider any feedback (I'm also posting this on a couple other mod threads - identically, to save the time of trying to paraphrase myself) before simming and posting the fight.

Thanks,
BBB
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Old 01-10-2010, 05:08 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBoyBrackey View Post
Prof -

I'm a novice at rating fighters or tweaking ratings, and was wondering what you, as well as those reading, think of the Mayweather and Pacquiao ratings in the db. Given circumstances, it looks like this might be a good one for my 'Shoulda but Didna' thread, but I want to take a good look at the ratings before doing so.

Their welter ratings look pretty accurate, but I have a few areas I'm wondering about.

---Pacquiao has a hp of 8, while Mayweather is a 7. Floyd can crack when he wants to, as shown by the hook that floored Marquez, but rarely does. Is Pacquiao high enough, given the two knockdowns against Cotto? Is Floyd too high?

---Mayweather is also a 7 for aggressiveness and killer instinct. That's the same rating Sugar Ray Leonard had at welter, which seems odd. Floyd can be lowered to 6 in both categories without lowering his overall 13. For that matter, his hp can also be cut to 6, along with aggressiveness and killer instinct, without lowering the 13.

I'm going to take a few days to consider any feedback (I'm also posting this on a couple other mod threads - identically, to save the time of trying to paraphrase myself) before simming and posting the fight.

Thanks,
BBB
Here I'd have to defer to Conn Chris, Dean, Bear, or John Dewey. My interest in boxing is pretty much historical and limited to the Post-World War II 1940s to the very early 1980s. I tend to do a lot of research (old boxing magazines, etc.) to get a sense of a fighter's style/ability and then match that with my evaluations of what I find in BoxRec. I just don't have the resources to make any judgement on your specific question.

But in a general sense, when I'm doing a rating, I don't consider HP in isolation. I work it in with CF and PL/CP ratings. A number of the HP ratings that appear seem to follow the suggested forumla in the TBCB 2.0 Manual which I find rather troublesome in some instances. Later today I plan to post my rating of late 1960s heavyweight Terry Krueger which ironically addresses most of the points that you raised.

One final point concerning the "overall" rating. I've pretty much always considered it a rough guide (a very rough guide) concerning a boxer's abilities. When rating a particular boxer, you have to be careful that it doesn't affect your thinking in the sense that you see the overall rating as being "too low" or "too high" and then make unwarrented adjustments to make a boxer "fit". With more than two dozen variables at play, it often comes down to how two fighters mesh rather than their overall ratings.

I think that Conn Chris's "Sub-Zero" templates demonstrate one facet of this problem.

And by the way, rating boxers is often hightly subjective and rather intuitive.
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Old 01-10-2010, 07:49 PM   #70
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Terry "The Pill" Krueger-The Texas Placebo

Terry Krueger was a late-60s/early-70s "knockout artist" in the Bowie Adams/LaMar Clark mold. That's to say he compiled an "impressive" record of early round kayos over far less than token opposition.

His handlers no doubt picked people off street corners, pulled them out of bars, and I suspect, conducted a few late night raids on local mortuaries for his opponents. Like Adams and Clark, virtually all of Terry's "victims" were either local punching bags or guys who's only recorded pro bout in BoxRec is a knockout loss to Krueger. This accounts for his record showing thirty-three of his thirty-four wins coming by way of KO/TKO.

His reputed power was further enhanced by two particular knockout victories.

Krueger scored one of the fastest kayo wins in recorded boxing history by dispatching his opponent in twelve seconds of the first round--and that included the ten-count!

The guy on the recieving end was one Kame De Kabbajar, who according to the September 7, 1970 issue of Sports Illustrated, travelled 7,000 miles from Ghana to San Antonio to met Krueger. You have to wonder if jet lag was more of a factor than Krueger's punch in this instance. Oh, and by the way, this was De Kabbajar's first and only professional fight!

The other involved Krueger's bout with highly-regarded Pedro Lovell. Terry knocked Pedro cold in the fourth round of their 1973 match making him the only person to put Lovell down for the full count. In a rematch three months later, Lovell scored a first round TKO and gave Krueger a severe beating.

Let me put this in perspective. People do get struck by lightning, you can socre a touchdown with a Hail Mary Pass, and if you buy a ticket you could win millions in the New Jersey Lottery. And in boxing you can score a lucky shot.

The fact of the matter in the first Lovell fight was that Pedro was beating the tar out of Krueger for three rounds. According to coverage of the match in The Ring and BoxRec, in the fourth frame Terry threw a wild haymaker, and Lovell's jaw was in the way.

Outside of beating up a smaller Bobby Rascon, Krueger lost (usually by kayo) to every fighter he faced with a name that you might recognize. He was stopped by Richard Dunn, Rodney Bobick, Jody Ballard, Jeff Shelburg, Sonny Moore, and Larry Frazier, none of whom were very high on the heavyweight food chain during the period. You can also add some lesser known/unknown names like Clarence Boone, Alfredo Mongol Ortiz, Mani Vaka, Frank Howard, and Henry Hall among those who planted the Pill.

So in this regard, I'm in total agreement with the defensive ratings for Krueger in the data pool. It's with the offensive evaluation that I have some strong differences.

Currently the db ratings have Krueger with a CF of 6/6, an HP of 8, and PL/CP at 35/33. Throw in the fact that as a southpaw, Krueger gets a CF boost, his rating makes him much more formidable that he was in reality. Sure he can knockout BoBo Bash just like he did in real life back in 1974. But he has a darn good chance of doing the same to Bobick, Dunn, and all of the rest mentioned above which just didn't happen.

As you'll note, I made substantial changes in my ratings. I took his CF down to 4/4 (remember that the southpaw factor actually gives him a boost here), reduced the HP to 5, and downgraded his PL/CP to 28/28.

These are indeed drastic changes. Nevertheless, I playtested him against a variety of real life opponents with TBCB default ratings and the results were very accurate. In his sequences with Lovell, once he kayoed Pedro in the fourth and was stopped by him many times in the first, as it was in reality.

Here, however, is the critical point. I'm certain that Krueger's default rating was also tested as well. This takes us to the questions raised by Conn Chris with his "Sub-Zero" template ratings.

If I were to look at Krueger's victims in the context that "all zeroes are created equal", the default rating generally gave me an accurate result in testing against 0 rated fighters. There were, however, a goodly amount of inaccurate results using the default against Krueger's opponents who were rated higher.

But as Chris has pointed out, zeroes are not equal in TBCB, and if you look at Krueger's early round knockout opponents, they are the lowest of the low. When testing my rating, Krueger scored quick kayos when he was facing fighters -10 and lower. As he started to move up the food chain among the subzeroes the quick knockouts became far less frequent. In measuring Krueger against Chris's templates, he'd be roughly a -3.

The other question that the Krueger rating raises is the assignment of the HP. One-shot kayos do happen in boxing, and there are fighters who can take a foe out with one shot. But might this be somewhat overstated in rating fighters? Certainly actual fights are different from what takes place when John Garfield enters the ring in Body and Soul.

Generally, when you think of power punchers like Shavers or Foremen, it was a hard setup shot with a few follow ups that put their opponents away. Thus, as we all know the relationship between CF, PL/CP, KI, and HP have a strong symbiosis. At times, I think that we might tend to overlook this and view HP in isolation.

In a broader sense, there are really only two TBCB variables that have numbers attached to them in BoxRec.---knockouts and rounds fought. The TBCB 2.0 Manual provides formulae to convert each into a rating (HP and Endurance, respectively).

When we are attempting to rate fighters who have not received the "ink" that's been enjoyed by the likes of Ali, Tyson, and the rest, I often wonder if we rely too much on the quantitative elements of these formulae at the expense of the qualitiave elements in a fighter's ratings for HP and Endurance.

Once more, my objective here is to examine approaches to rating fighters and to share with my fellow forum members ratings that I've put together for my own use. My justifications are just theories and are no better than those employed by the TBCB rating team or any other person who posts ratings.
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Old 01-12-2010, 02:02 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by professordp View Post
Some things just stay in your head, as insignificant as they might be in the overall course of life events. Such is the case with Skinny Jimmy Rothwell, a mid-to-late 70s welterweight fighting out of Philly.

Back in the late 1970s, a friend and I would watch this obscure boxing program, The Cavalcade of Boxing, over UHF (remember that funny, round antenna on the back of your tv?).

One Saturday morning, the show broadcast a bout featuring Mike Everett, younger brother of Tyronne, against this local guy, Skinny Jimmy Rothwell.
Everett was clearly favored, and the bout was a warmup for Mike's upcoming match with Pennsylvania welter champ Alfonso Hayman.

As you might expect, Rothwell was this lean, lanky type that looked like a blow to the gut would rip right through to his back. But Everett was a bit over confident and undertrained. For six rounds, Skinny Jimmy picked him apart, scoring a TKO upset victory.

I don't know what possessed us, but once the contest went into the second round, my friend and I were repeatedly screaming, "Go Skinny Jimmy! Go!" I have no explanation why.

Well Skinny Jimmy got that shot against Hayman and picked up the PA welter crown via a ten round decision. Unfortunately, two fights later he was in Detroit facing this young guy with an 8-0 record named Thomas Hearns. It was over for Skinny Jimmy in the first round.

Rothwell was your typical Philly fighter. Good boxing skills, tricky, and a fine counter-puncher. He was a regular at the City of Brotherly Love's major boxing venues, fighting frequently at the Blue Horizon and the Spectrum. He only ventured out of his hometown twice in his nineteen pro bouts, losing both contests. In addtion to the Hearns loss, he was kayoed in the seventh by tough Jo Kimpuani when the two met in France. This was to be Skinny Jimmy's last fight.

Sadly, Jimmy passed away back in 1993.

Still, to this day I have the strong urge to yell, "Go Skinny Jimmy! Go!" just one more time
Just got around to reading this thread, but I also remember the Gillette Cavalcade of Boxing! Unfortunately my memory is such that I don't recall a lot of who I watched, just that I watched...lol Later on I enjoyed watching boxing on Wide World of Sports with good old Howard calling the action with at times Chris Schenkle (sp?). It was those 2 shows that cemented a life long passion for the sweet science!
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Old 01-13-2010, 08:02 AM   #72
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Sonny Moore-The All-Purpose Heavyweight

I suppose if Sonny Moore would have been a baseball player rather than a boxer he would have most likely served as a utility infielder.

During his nearly seventeen years in the ring, starting in the late 1950s and ending in the early 1970s, Moore was one of those guys you could just patch into a situation.

Tony Doyle can't make the Terrell fight? No problem, get Sonny Moore. Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, or Sonny Liston are trying to regain their past glories? Moore's the man. Need a trial horse for Foster (Bob or Mac), Buster Mathis, or Dave Zyglewicz? Give Sonny a call. Maybe you need someone to fight Tod Herring, Terry Daniels, or Buddy Turman for the Texas state title? Sonny Moore's available.

And so it went for Sonny "S.D. Policeman" Moore. His record of 24-37-3 might slightly understate his ability. Generally he was on the losing end when he met a fighter with a name, but if you faced him, typically he made you earn your pay.

Not blessed with a powerful punch or a steel jaw, Moore was a savvy fighter who got the most out of his limited abilities with his ring smarts.

Guys like Moore were an integral part of the boxing game. During his career he was steady, though mediocre, and generally came to fight.

The rating below is Prime, but I really wouldn't advise adjusting for career stage in Moore's case. He was consistently run-of-the-mill from the day he first laced his gloves until April 1973 when he finally hung them up.
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Old 01-31-2010, 10:02 AM   #73
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Roy Miller-Jayhawk Journeyman

From the mid to late 1940s, Roy Miller was a well-travelled gatekeeper in the talent-rich middleweight division. A product of Kansas City, Kansas and winner of that city's Golden Gloves, Miller fought throughout the United States. Starting his career along the West Coast, he moved eastward to New England and finished up his ring days in the Midwest.

A tough slugger, he was a veteran of sixty-three pro fights with thirty-nine victories, twenty-two by way of early endings. In his eighteen losses, he was only stopped four times and never knocked out. Two of the stoppages came in his early days as a fighter and the other two shortly before he retired in 1952.

He held wins over Artie Towne and Sal Baroudi and went the distance in a losing effort against highly touted Bert Lytell. He fought regularly between 1944 and 1948, but his career began to slow down substantially after that. He had only two fights in 1949 and two in 1950.

In those two latter bouts he took pretty severe beatings at the hands of Bobo Olson and Bob Murphy. After being stopped by Murphy, he retired only to return for one more match two years later against Moses Ward. After dropping an eight round decision to Ward in 1952, he retired for good.

As with most of the ratings I post here, Miller's rating is "Prime" and based upon his professional peak rather than his overall career. He fought six times after 1948 without a win. In most of those matches, he was generally outweighed by his opponents. I excluded those fights from my considerations in creating this rating. If you plan to use him in a sim post-1948, you should make a career adjustment.
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Old 02-04-2010, 02:56 PM   #74
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Canadian Beefcake-Bob "Pretty Boy" Felstein

The Italians had Mino Bozzano and the English offered up Johnny "Playboy" Prescott drawing the ladies into the boxing arenas. Canada countered with Bob "Pretty Boy" Felstein.

Like Bozzano and Prescott, Felstein was a heavyweight who was blessed with good looks but had rather limited skills in the boxing ring.

His career was off to a rocky start in 1965 as he was winless (0-2-1) in his first three fights. After some "adjustments", Pretty Boy went on to win ten straight (eight by kayo) against the usual suspects. The streak was ended by way of a five round knockout loss to Ray Anderson in 1966.

From that point on, he had a somewhat mixed record. He beat an old Archie McBride and knocked out Dick Wipperman (the only man to put the Bulldog down for the count!), but then lost to the mediorce Eddie Vick.

Generally, as the competition got tougher, Felstein began to lose more regularly. He dropped decisions to Dave Zyglewicz, George Johnson, Bob Cleroux, and Pedro Agosto. All of that was capped off with a second round kayo suffered at the hands of Mac Foster. In his next bout he dropped a ten round unanimous decision to Hal Carroll and appeared to call it a career in June 1970.

In an example of very poor judgement, he came back two years later to face Earnie Shavers who flattened him in five. Nine months after that Jimmy Ellis put him away in two resulting on Pretty Boy's second "retirement".

Following a layoff of four years, he went up against fellow Canadian George Chuvalo in 1977 who disposed of Felstein in the ninth round. This led to a third "retirement (are you starting to see a pattern here?) that lasted for another three years. He fought Chuck Findley in 1980, lost a ten round decision, and finally retired for good!

If there's a message in all of this, Beauty only conquers the Beast in fairy tales---not in the boxing ring. The best I can do to substantiate this statement is to direct you to an account of the 1958 match between Art "Golden Boy" Aragon and Carmen Basilio.

Felstein doesn't appear in the db, which to me is a little surprising. Conn Chris did rate him a number of years ago, and my rating below is really a sort of nip and tuck of that effort.

Since my ratings are generally based upon a fighter's actual prime rather than his overall career, Felstein is slightly tougher in my version due to the fact that I excluded those matches that took place after Pretty Boy's first "retirement."

I had toyed with the idea of changing his conditioning rating. Chris had him at 9--Head Case. I was intially inclined to change that to a 5--Party Animal--with the thought that a good looking guy like this wasn't going to stay home alone on a Saturday night. I'm sure he could have had his pick of the arena groupies who flocked to watch him fight.

But then I started looking at that publicity photo below. Top hat and tails! Hmmm. Maybe it's best to stay with that 9 rating after all. This guy had to be the ultimate narcissist. You could just imagine him standing in the gym looking at his own reflectiion in the mirror rather than working the heavy bag.
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Old 04-10-2010, 05:21 PM   #75
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Philly Cheesesteaks-Clarence "Honeychile" Johnson

Okay, let me get this out of my system. This guy's nickname always has me humming one or the other of those two strange Beatles' tunes, "Honey-Pie", from the White Album

A hot teen prospect following WW II, Johnson was a product of the tough Gray's Ferry section of South Philly. Prior to turning pro in 1946, he won the city's Diamond Belt Sub-Novice championship.

Unlike your typical Philly fighter, most of his early bouts were in New Jersey, with Asbury Park serving as his home base. Two years into his career, however, his became a fixture in Philadelphia appearing in most of the city's main venues including Convention Hall, the Arena, Toppi Stadium, and the Metropolitan Opera House.

Old school Philly fight fans will remember him for his series of fights with Otis Graham and Charley Spicer. Against Graham he went 1-1-1. He had five pretty close bouts with Spicer but could never beat him. Spicer decisioned him three times. The other two matches resulted in draws.

Midway through 1950 he compiled a decent record of 37-10-4, and his aggressive slugging style made him a favorite with the Philly fight fans.
But then the ceiling came down upon him.

In November 1950 he was paired against former middleweight champion Rocky Graziano and was knocked cold in the fourth. He was to fight ten more times, but lost all of his matches before retiring after a kayo loss to Charley Cotton in 1955.

Two years inactivity due to military service (1952-1953) didn't help Honeychile's career, but he seems to have lost it long before that. That knockout loss to Graziano seemed to take something out of him.

Of his twenty-one losses, Johnson was only stopped four times with three of the early endings coming during the period of his general decline.

A natural welterweight, Honeychile had a decent jaw, but he often fought middleweights (particularly in the latter years) who were larger and hit harder. If you match him up against Graham, Graziano, Charley Cotton, or any other middleweight, I'd strongly advise that you set for a weight class adjustment on the pre-fight option screen.

Given his post-Graziano problems, I've given Johnson a conditioning rating of 9---"Head Case".

Unlike most of my ratings, this one really is more of a representation of Johnson's overall career rather than his "prime". With the "Head Case" conditioning and the weight adjustment option, he should play out pretty accurate against welters against whom he'll hold his own and have difficulties with middleweights as he did during his career
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:29 AM   #76
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Mel Barker-Revised/Alternative Rating

Below is my variation of the DB rating for this mid-50s/early 60s welterweight. I've only made a few changes from what was constructed and entered by the TBCB 3 DB Team but the alterations are critical insofar as they take Barker from an overall rating of 1 to a 5. I personally look at overall ratings as a rough guide and not all-defining, but a four tier jump is something that needs to be explained.

My major point of departure from the team concerns Baker's chin. The data base rating has him at 4 for both knockdowns and knockouts. Here's my problem---in fifty-three fights, Baker only failed to finish two (Jorge Jose Fernandez and Virgil Akins). Both of these stoppages came by way of TKO, thus Baker was never counted out during his nine years as a pro!

He went the distance in losing efforts with Emile Griffith, Ralph Dupas (twelve rounds), Gaspar Ortega, Sixto Alvarez, Milo Savage, and Gomeo Brennan. He earned decisions over Joey Parks, Joey Limas, and Charley Salas. Not something that you could do with a 4 chin rating!

So my major change was to upgrade his jaw to 2 vs knockdowns and 1 vs knockouts. In addition I moved his Recovery from 5 to 2 and his Absorb Punishment from 3 to 2.

Given his ability to finish on his feet against the better fighters in his division, I bumped up his Defense from 2 to 1 and his Endurance from 8 to 10.

I simmed both ratings (mine and the team's) against the above mentioned opponents and in my testing, found that this revision provides a more accurate set of results.

Obviously, this isn't the earth shattering event. Still, for those who engage in career-based replays, I felt that this alternative rating was in order.

Once more, rating boxers is a highly subjective exercise and generally rests in the eye of the beholder. This is just an alternative rating and not a questioning of the rating team's judgement or expertise.
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Last edited by professordp; 04-11-2010 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 04-11-2010, 02:25 PM   #77
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Prof,

I have a lot of respect for the DB team but there are quite a few guys IMO who have really underrated chins.....especially among the journeyman types.
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Old 04-11-2010, 03:51 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by a87star View Post
Prof,

I have a lot of respect for the DB team but there are quite a few guys IMO who have really underrated chins.....especially among the journeyman types.
When I come across one of these guys, I make what I feel is an appropriate revision. But I agree with you---you really have to respect the efforts of the team. The times that they've been off base in their assessments are very rare. That's really some track record when you consider all the thousands of ratings that they've compiled.

The problem with the journeymen, who are generally the focus of my thread, is that you don't have all that much to go on. Guys like Joe Louis, Ali, Duran, etc. are pretty easy (at least in my view) since you have books, articles, and fight films galore.

I personally get a kick out of going through old boxing magazines, searching the Internet, and pouring over BoxRec to see what I can find out about these fighters who never made it to the top tier. Almost all of them have very interesting personal stories. And you always have to remember that the superstars would have never become superstars without the journeymen! You can't have a decent boxing simulation without these guys!!

And by the way, thanks for tuning into my thread and sharing your views

Last edited by professordp; 04-11-2010 at 03:53 PM.
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Old 04-12-2010, 02:42 PM   #79
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One That Got Away--Charley Salas

Here's one of the few that slipped through the fine mesh net of the rating team. Charley "Dynamite" Salas, a native of Arizona, prowled the welterweight division between 1945 to 1957 fighting a total of 201 matches, some of which were among name opponents.

Overall, Salas put together a record of 135-52-13. The amazing thing is that he was only stopped once. In 1955 Rory Calhoun scored a TKO win over Salas in the ninth of their scheduled ten rounder.

Although he did halt fifty-one of his opponents, Salas was known as a slick, clever boxer/slugger who often got by on his wits rather than his power.

Here's a brief description of his contest with top-ranked Joe Miceli:

"A fighter from California, Charley Salas, came into the gym and his camp asked Miceli to work with him. They also asked Miceli to go easy on him. Joe’s standard response was, 'If he bombs me, I bomb him. If he kisses me, I kiss him.'
The bell rings and Salas starts delivering the bombs. Miceli gathers himself and launches that famous, left hook-uppercut and knocks Salas cold. 'They could have counted to 100.'
A few months pass and, guess what, Miceli and Salas are matched at the Ridgewood Grove for a 10-rounder. Miceli barely trains, figuring, 'if I knocked this guy out with headgear and big sparring gloves, I’ll knock him out in a real fight.'
The problem is that Salas runs for 10 rounds. 'I thought I lost it, but they scored it a draw.'"

Besides Miceli, Charley was in the ring with Charley Cotton, Gene Hairston, Johnny Saxton, and Pierre Langlois losing all by decision. He also fought Mel Barker four times with each fighter winning two decisions.

He split decisions with then-lightweight champ Ike Williams and Cuban contender Chico Verona. In 1951 he scored a unanimous decision over Elmer Beltz and later in the year stopped an aged Kid Azteca.

Salas fought most of his matches in his home state and held the Arizona State Welterweight Championship for several years. On occassion he could be found fighting in California and Texas. He made a trip East in 1950, fighting in Philly, Brooklyn, D.C., Queens, and Newark, N.J.

Although he's listed as a welterweight, Salas fought many middlweights during his thirteen year career with no ill-effects. Therefore, when matching him against middleweights, I suggest that you do not adjust for weight class in the prefight option window.
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Old 04-13-2010, 11:25 PM   #80
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Philly Cheesesteaks-Randy Mack

A southpaw slugger from South Philly, heavyweight Randy Mack had an on-again/off-again career between 1975 to 1985. Periods of inactvity limited him to only 26 professional bouts in an eleven year period.

After winning his first pro contest, he lost his next three, and after dropping an eight round decision to Marty Monroe in September 1976, he left boxing.

He returned eighteen months later and ran off a string of fourteen fights without a loss which included two draws with Marvin Stinson, a TKO over Jody Ballard, and a ten round majority decision over tricky Leroy Caldwell. His streak was snapped in a return match with Caldwell which Mack lost via a ten round decision at the end of 1980.

During the next two years he only fought five times winning three and losing two. His wins were against three stiffs. Both Lynn Ball and James Broad stopped him for the two losses.

Following his loss to Broad in Spetember 1982, Randy retired once again, but he came back two years at age thirty for two fights against bottom feeders, both of which were losses. Mack then retired for good with a record of 16-8-2.
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