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OOTP 14 - General Discussions Discuss the new 2013 version of Out of the Park Baseball here!

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Old 05-11-2013, 11:29 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by The Wolf View Post
Yes. Lead off with some honest hard work.
Who are you addressing? Me?

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Originally Posted by joefromchicago View Post
I agree in principle, but that doesn't seem to be the way things are going in the computer gaming world.

I've purchased plenty of games over the years, and the manuals just keep getting less and less informative. The task of instructing players on game mechanics and strategies has gradually been handed off (either intentionally or not) to the players themselves. That has been facilitated by the development of forums, the creation of Wikis, and by gamers who produce "how to play" videos that they post on Youtube.

You can say that the companies that do this are abdicating their responsibility to create a manual, or you can say that they are enhancing their product by relying on the "wisdom of the crowd."

That may be a good thing or a bad thing, but it's the way things are now. It's just one aspect of the overall trend toward the democratization of information. Manuals are an example of the top-down model of information that is being supplanted by the bottom-up model pioneered by Wikipedia. Both models can co-exist, but there are a lot of advantages to the bottom-up model that OOTP hasn't fully taken advantage of.
That is a function of having less open world games and more linear games. Or simpler games aka shooters.

Doesn't work for a hugely complex game like OOTP (CK 2 has been mentioned - it's pretty much the same thing).

I for once draw a lot of fun out of the idea to be able to totally customize my game to my tastes. But in order to do that successfully, I need to know how - and there the game (or rather the manual) fails me somewhat.

To get back on topic: If you are itching to write something (even a rough draft), here are three empty pages that shouldn't be too hard to fill for somebody who has attained Hall of Famer status on this board:
Injury Basics: When where and how are injuries used.

The Injury Files: Explain the Injuries txt file

Hands-on: Injuries: An example of adding some obscure and entertaining injury to the file. Should include a screen shot?
Any takers?
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:37 AM   #42
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Any takers?


Unless you are willing to do some of the leg work and lead by "doing" I doubt that you will see this project come to fruition. However, I'd be happy to help. But before that is going to happen, where's your contribution?
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Old 05-11-2013, 11:43 AM   #43
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where's your contribution?
Well asked, HP.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 05-11-2013, 11:53 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by Honorable_Pawn View Post
Unless you are willing to do some of the leg work and lead by "doing" I doubt that you will see this project come to fruition. However, I'd be happy to help. But before that is going to happen, where's your contribution?
HP, I have a full-time job, three little kids at home, and a mother who just suffered a severe stroke, of which I am the sole descendant. I have more than enough to manage right now - OOTP is supposed to be a source of enjoyment and relaxation.

I believe it is absolutely fair to offer give this "project" some direction and editing - because those things I can do. Having to research stuff, other, more experienced players can probably write up much more easily is inefficient.

Yes, I am a little bit angry.

@The Wolf: Dear canine, for someone who obviously has been around the forum for quite a while, and especially counting the number of your posts in this thread, you have contributed nothing that would help achieve the task at hand. One might even think you were a naysayer by nature.

Why don't YOU write up on of those little texts? Shouldn't take you longer than your posts.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:13 PM   #45
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Now, my good friend, I'm not attacking you. Please don't think I am. I can appreciate you having a busy life. Me? I'm busy writing dynasty reports at the moment.

But, if I see the snow ball rolling I'll jump aboard. I'd hate to waste my time contributing to something that hasn't even been worked on by it's author.

As far as being the Chief...I wish you a lot of indians. Good luck in your endeavor I really hope that you find enough people ready to commit their time when you are unable (through no fault of your own) to contribute your own time.

Sincerely...best wishes.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:19 PM   #46
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I would submit that he has done something.

He took the initiative to put his ideas together and is now promoting them.

He's organized his ideas and taken suggestions. He's taken the time to do some research in the manual to see what's missing and came up with a good starting point.

He's spent his own time and energy, which he doesn't appear to have a lot to spare.

Personally, I commend him for tackling this and doing what he has thus far.


Maybe some people feel that until he writes one of these articles he isn't doing anything. He's not a vet of OOTP, he's already explained that. So how would someone without the knowledge/experience write an article? He's correct, veteran users of the game are the ones who should be contributing, that's where the knowledge and experience is.

At the end of the day, you can contribute to the project or shrug your shoulders and not care about it.

I see no reason for anyone to keep questioning his why/methods of doing this. If you don't care about the manual/user guide, move on to the next thread. Some people do care about it and are trying to do something about it. A lot more than can be said for the nay-sayers.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:25 PM   #47
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I can respect that.

It doesn't mean that I don't find it amusing, however.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:41 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AstaSyneri View Post
Who are you addressing? Me?That is a function of having less open world games and more linear games. Or simpler games aka shooters.

Doesn't work for a hugely complex game like OOTP (CK 2 has been mentioned - it's pretty much the same thing).
Yeah, I'm the one who mentioned CKII, and I think the analogy is a good one. When I was learning to play CKII, which is an enormously complicated game, I relied on the manual, the Wiki, the forum, and the "how to" videos. Each was useful in some ways and deficient in others.

The manual is good for explaining general concepts and the nuts-and-bolts of the game ("if you press this button, it will do this"), but doesn't give much help with strategy.

The Wiki is good for explaining how everything fits together, as well as providing some basic strategy tips ("if you press this button, you may also need to press this other button"), but can be daunting to the beginner.

The forum is good for more in-depth strategy tips ("which button is the best?"), but is disorganized and not much use if you need help immediately.

The "how-to" videos are great for the beginner ("there's a button?"), but impossible as reference sources.

Each performs a useful function -- that's why they all co-exist.

I get the sense that you just want a manual. Manuals are nice, but they're not everything. I'd like an OOTP manual too, but that doesn't mean that a manual is necessarily better than a Wiki or a forum or a video.

By asking the gamer community to help out, I think what you're really aiming for is better accomplished by the OOTP Wiki rather than the manual. The manual is, for better or worse, the company's product. The Wiki should be the community's product. If the company can't produce a manual, I don't think it's the community's task to write one for it.
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Old 05-11-2013, 12:43 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by AstaSyneri View Post
When I clamor that the manual isn't up date, I am being bashed that the manual is more or less done by the community.
First, let me thank you for your effort here. It is a good idea and a noble effort, but it's not going to work because of what I say below.
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One problem I see is that there are parts of a manual/wiki that only the developers like Markus and Andreas could complete. For example, someone in the community could take a stab at what we *think* is going on with all the numbers on a team's "Front Office" tab, but it always seems like there are discrepancies that the community can't reconcile, and only the developers could probably explain (e.g. numbers for budget room not adding up, next year's payroll not matching between "Finances" and Salaries", etc.)

So while the community could probably put together a pretty thorough overview of the game, the screens, the configuration options, etc., we would still need the developers to be willing to fill in some of those behind-the-scenes details.
Exactly. A proper manual must have the insight and oversight of the developers, not the community. In the past, the manual has been written by a trusted insider (Steve Battisti comes to mind, bless him, wherever he is now) with the guidance of Andreas and Markus themselves. hefalumps makes excellent points here. The manual already has "a pretty thorough overview of the game." When the community would need the expertise to fill in its blanks, who among us has private and instant access to Andreas and Markus? Nobody? At least nobody who is not already doing a fair share of volunteer work on a game? So what do we end up with as a result? Right.
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And to you patrons that continually defend OOTP for not having one produced on a regular basis (That means updated with EVERY VERSION) because they are a small company with limited recourses or whatever reason is given is kind of embarrassing.

If you people went to the store and bought a product off the shelf and the assembly manual or the instruction manual's were incomplete or missing you wouldn't be ok with that just because the company was smaller and didn't have the funds ,manpower or resources to produce the written material that is so vital to your purchase.

Do I personally need a manual? NO But there obviously people who do need one and most importantly there are people who WANT one and that reason alone should be enough for OOTP to make an effort to produce one instead of coming up with excuses why there isn't one than having the OOTP Playing masses back them up for a poor business decision.
I'm one of those patrons but I consider myself a realist rather than apologist. Yes we do need a manual. The point is, there IS a manual and it's not too bad. It's not up to date, yet. It soon will be, I trust. As I said someplace else, this is a two (and a half?) person enterprise. When I see OOTPB on sale in its own end-aisle display in Walmart, THEN I will expect an up-to-date manual on Day One. Until then, I'd rather the two (and a half?) people concentrate on improving and de-bugging the game first.
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Old 05-11-2013, 01:29 PM   #50
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Old 05-13-2013, 03:56 AM   #51
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First, let me thank you for your effort here. It is a good idea and a noble effort, but it's not going to work because of what I say below.

Exactly. A proper manual must have the insight and oversight of the developers, not the community. In the past, the manual has been written by a trusted insider (Steve Battisti comes to mind, bless him, wherever he is now) with the guidance of Andreas and Markus themselves. hefalumps makes excellent points here. The manual already has "a pretty thorough overview of the game." When the community would need the expertise to fill in its blanks, who among us has private and instant access to Andreas and Markus? Nobody? At least nobody who is not already doing a fair share of volunteer work on a game? So what do we end up with as a result? Right.

I'm one of those patrons but I consider myself a realist rather than apologist. Yes we do need a manual. The point is, there IS a manual and it's not too bad. It's not up to date, yet. It soon will be, I trust. As I said someplace else, this is a two (and a half?) person enterprise. When I see OOTPB on sale in its own end-aisle display in Walmart, THEN I will expect an up-to-date manual on Day One. Until then, I'd rather the two (and a half?) people concentrate on improving and de-bugging the game first.
In many parts I agree with you. It would certainly be best, if the developers took the bull by the horns and updated the manual. Maybe, if the see the interest in this topic, they'll see the light ;-).

Until then I still need to find out the hard way about certain aspects.
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:02 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by AstaSyneri View Post
In many parts I agree with you. It would certainly be best, if the developers took the bull by the horns and updated the manual. Maybe, if the see the interest in this topic, they'll see the light ;-).

Until then I still need to find out the hard way about certain aspects.
Acutally the developers do not do the manual. It 's the beta member in charge of that., however markus and adreas do guide us with answers when we ask the questions.
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Old 05-13-2013, 01:16 PM   #53
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Acutally the developers do not do the manual. It 's the beta member in charge of that., however markus and adreas do guide us with answers when we ask the questions.
Which is the only way it's going to work, wikis aside. Wikis are good for walk throughs and strategy hints. For nuts and bolts on how stuff works, I want a manual straight from or at least guided by official sources.
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Old 05-17-2013, 09:33 AM   #54
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Which is the only way it's going to work, wikis aside. Wikis are good for walk throughs and strategy hints. For nuts and bolts on how stuff works, I want a manual straight from or at least guided by official sources.
With that in mind I rest my case.

I'll be try to muddle through and time permitting write a tutorial or two for things I find out.
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Old 05-17-2013, 10:06 AM   #55
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And now we return you to the normal state of OOTP documentation...
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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