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Old 07-19-2014, 10:44 PM   #1
tran
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The Point was Lost on Sebastian

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...rs-thanks.html
Quote:
I think Markus said it well enough, no need to talk about it again and again. Closed.
Sebby said as he locks the thread.
So much for the "customer is right."

I hope you guys figure out how to make this game work. I'm doubtful you'll get it done before your devote followers give up on you. And you can thank Markus/Sebastian for that.
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Old 07-19-2014, 11:41 PM   #2
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No, the point was not lost on Sebastian.

You have to understand that they have apologized many times for their missteps. They realize they can't keep saying "i'm sorry" to appease the group that are upset who refuse to let it go. In the end, we care about showing us by their actions. That's what speaks the most to me. They are working very hard and listening to true feedback to improve. The fact that they need to deal with this is over and over again is simply a waste of their time so they just lock the thread. You can only apologize so many times for the same thing. But the fact of the matter is they've learned some valuable lessons and we will see it in the product if you have some patience.

This thread will be locked as well and it truly deserves it.
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Old 07-20-2014, 05:59 AM   #3
Bigby Wolf
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@ tran

I paid $40 for this game and sure, there's room for improvement but give it a rest, I shudder to think what will happen when you visit your first strip club and waste a lot more money on your preferred redhead/blond/brunette.

Last edited by Bigby Wolf; 07-20-2014 at 06:01 AM.
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Old 07-20-2014, 06:40 AM   #4
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I haven't seen it posted anywhere, but what is the vision?

Is it to copy EHM? (this seems to be the case so far)
Is it to allow users in-game control and interactivity much like OOTP? (but has yet to appear)
Is it to mimic FM? (have never played but have seen it compared many times)

Curious on what the model is.
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Old 07-20-2014, 08:06 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pucku33 View Post
I haven't seen it posted anywhere, but what is the vision?

Is it to copy EHM? (this seems to be the case so far)
Is it to allow users in-game control and interactivity much like OOTP? (but has yet to appear)
Is it to mimic FM? (have never played but have seen it compared many times)

Curious on what the model is.
I keep the thread open for the moment as this is a good question.

We don't copy any game, so FHM is not OOTP Hockey, it is not a new version of EHM and it will not be FM just for Hockey. FHM will be our vision of a good hockey game, coupled with feedback from the community. Of course we will use inspiration from all this great games, e.g. advance the historical part (which never was availabe with EHM), same with fictional. We will add international play at some point, something OOTP never had so far.

For user-feedback: we know that our GUI is far from good so we spend a great deal of time to improve it (ask our researchers) for 2015.

I know that with the above described vision we can't make everyone happy but thats just how it is.

Hope I was able to answere your question.
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Old 07-20-2014, 01:36 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski View Post
For user-feedback: we know that our GUI is far from good so we spend a great deal of time to improve it (ask our researchers) for 2015.
He's 100% right here! The few sneak peaks we'd had so far of the new GUI are very nice indeed!
 
Old 07-20-2014, 02:54 PM   #7
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Interesting.
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Old 07-20-2014, 03:44 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski View Post
For user-feedback: we know that our GUI is far from good so we spend a great deal of time to improve it (ask our researchers) for 2015.
Yep, they have listened to our feedback and have implemented many of ideas already. We now have something that looks and, will hopefully work, significantly better than FHM 14. It's still in its early stages but it really does look very promising.
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Old 07-20-2014, 04:14 PM   #9
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I can confirm what Garethw87 and archibalduk said
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:55 PM   #10
tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dave1927p View Post
No, the point was not lost on Sebastian.

You have to understand that they have apologized many times for their missteps. They realize they can't keep saying "i'm sorry" to appease the group that are upset who refuse to let it go. In the end, we care about showing us by their actions. That's what speaks the most to me. They are working very hard and listening to true feedback to improve. The fact that they need to deal with this is over and over again is simply a waste of their time so they just lock the thread. You can only apologize so many times for the same thing. But the fact of the matter is they've learned some valuable lessons and we will see it in the product if you have some patience.

This thread will be locked as well and it truly deserves it.
I don't have to understand anything, Dave.

It's not my job as a customer to understand why their product that I paid for sucks.
It's not my job as a customer to understand why they don't live up to their promises.


And you know what, I don't even really care about that. I haven't complained about the project in a year. I realized this issue of the game is busted beyond belief and not going to be fixed, so I stopped playing. About 4 months ago I reloaded the game on my new PC. It still sucked.

What I do care about is when the seller of the lousy product lectures the customer for complaining.

To me, that's what I can't stomach. Defend that all you want. It's wrong. It's bad business. It's unethical.

Stop bitching at customers because you can't look in the mirror because sold a lousy game.
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Old 07-23-2014, 03:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigby Wolf View Post
@ tran

I paid $40 for this game and sure, there's room for improvement but give it a rest, I shudder to think what will happen when you visit your first strip club and waste a lot more money on your preferred redhead/blond/brunette.
Good one, Bigby. That's relevant.
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:39 PM   #12
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I don't have to understand anything, Dave.
That much is clear.
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Old 07-23-2014, 04:53 PM   #13
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Personally I don't mind it. Is it “professional" or what we as a society considers "professional"? Some will.say no, but you know what? So what? I think we, as consumers, forget that the people behind the company are just that - people. They have feelings and emotions just like the rest of us. They are human just like the rest of us. They are probably just as frustrated as we are. I can't be upset if they want to vent a little bit. These people are bending over backwards trying to make and fix a game, all the while listening to consumers bash and belittle them. Honestly, i wish more companies in general would put their consumers in their place and just be brutally honest with instead giving the same old "We are sorry you are disappointed. We are working hard to resolve all the issues with our product. We thank you for your feedback and value you as a customer" every company spills out. Its so robotic and bland that it serves the opposite effect for me. It.comes off as not caring at all since companies say it all the time.

With all that being said, i also dont think we should just ignore all the flaws with a product just so we can inflate their ego. That wont make them any better at their job.

I guess all I'm really trying to say is that we should remember that the people that make these games are still human and we should treat them as such. Give them the respect you would want in return and they'll be more likely to keep trying to deliver bigger and better games.
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Old 07-23-2014, 06:21 PM   #14
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The game does not suck for everyone. It is not perfect, most likely never will be but we continue to improve it with every patch and every new version. Some people clearly will never be happy with our game because our vision is different to there vision but thats just the way it is. EA Sports never listened to me so I just stoped buying there game. I still respect there hard work even if the game is not for me.
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Old 07-23-2014, 10:17 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski View Post
so I just stoped buying there game..

I dont blame you at all!
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Old 07-24-2014, 12:47 AM   #16
tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian Palkowski View Post
The game does not suck for everyone. It is not perfect, most likely never will be but we continue to improve it with every patch and every new version. Some people clearly will never be happy with our game because our vision is different to there vision but thats just the way it is. EA Sports never listened to me so I just stoped buying there game. I still respect there hard work even if the game is not for me.

Stop pretending that you're unfairly being measured against perfection.

EHM 05 and EHM 07 weren't perfect. But years and years later, they are good enough to support small communities of hockey players.

Maybe there are FHM fansites out there. I don't know. But in the few places I've looked where people really appreciate hockey sims, FHM has been almost universally panned.

If this was a free ware game, or open source, or a donation-based game, developers would be cut tons of slack.

But it's not. You've demanded a pretty good sum for a game.

So cut your disappointed customers some slack.

It might seem to you like you've addressed all the angry customers, so why must you continue to hear it.

But then someone else buys the game and decides they're not happy with it either.

Don't act like upset customers are wrong, too demanding, or unsympathetic. That's precisely the wrong thing.

All I want to see is that a) you guys are taking feedback seriously b) you're going to make the next version MUCH better and c) you're happy to have customers willing to stick with the game while you figure out how to make it playable.

In my head, I decided early on I would buy one version. After playing it a couple times and experiencing debilitating bugs and crashes, poor interface, and poorly thought out elements of the game, I made my suggestions and decided to wait until next year's version.

The difference between year 1 and year 2 will tell me if this project is worth following. Unless you guys keep crying about unhappy customers. Then I won't bother.
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Old 07-24-2014, 12:52 AM   #17
tran
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tictacktoe5 View Post
Personally I don't mind it. Is it “professional" or what we as a society considers "professional"? Some will.say no, but you know what? So what? I think we, as consumers, forget that the people behind the company are just that - people. They have feelings and emotions just like the rest of us. They are human just like the rest of us. They are probably just as frustrated as we are. I can't be upset if they want to vent a little bit. These people are bending over backwards trying to make and fix a game, all the while listening to consumers bash and belittle them. Honestly, i wish more companies in general would put their consumers in their place and just be brutally honest with instead giving the same old "We are sorry you are disappointed. We are working hard to resolve all the issues with our product. We thank you for your feedback and value you as a customer" every company spills out. Its so robotic and bland that it serves the opposite effect for me. It.comes off as not caring at all since companies say it all the time.

With all that being said, i also dont think we should just ignore all the flaws with a product just so we can inflate their ego. That wont make them any better at their job.

I guess all I'm really trying to say is that we should remember that the people that make these games are still human and we should treat them as such. Give them the respect you would want in return and they'll be more likely to keep trying to deliver bigger and better games.
Nobody is asking for anything robotic. You can dialogue. When someone has nothing but unconstructive criticism, you don't need to worry about it. But by all means, dialogue with people.

When you pay money for a game without knowing a thing about it, that's the best respect you can give a developer. That's all any developer should ask for.

2-3 years from now, if Sebastian and the team turn this into the best hockey sim ever -- then good for them.
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Old 07-24-2014, 02:13 AM   #18
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Alright, this has started to drift towards petty bickering, so I'm closing it now. Tran, you've had your say - repeatedly - and Sebastian has responded; he's away for a few days now so he won't be answering back. He was gracious enough not to point out that this thread was essentially the resurrection of one he'd previously closed, which would normally be grounds for a warning or ban, but that won't be overlooked if you try to re-open the subject again. I think we're now all well aware of your point of view, and your concerns have been noted; there's no need to continue to lecture everyone on the board about it.
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