real historical transactions?

[Gambo]

The sad part to me about the transaction rules is that the transaction database actually also includes when players changed organziations while in the minors, when they were drafted and also has many for players who were added in the Spritze/Gambo databases.

[bazeall]

Where is the option found in the menu? I have tried to create historic leagues, but this option never appears.

How to create a Historic League , following the wizard or menu, and have this appear?

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by Gambo

The sad part to me about the transaction rules is that the transaction database actually also includes when players changed organziations while in the minors, when they were drafted and also has many for players who were added in the Spritze/Gambo databases.

The transaction file is simply Way More Awesome than the silly transaction process included in OOTP can cope with. OOTP needs to catch up. Maybe someday? After 19th Century baseball is made functional.

Now that pisses me off to no end. We have all the 19th Century transactions in the Tranny Database but OOTP has been trained by Markus to ignore them as well as to ignore the league structures and the team movements. What is up with that?

[BaseballMan]

Well we know the game can work with real team movement. Could the problem be with when the teams fold. Sometimes players were just loaned to teams back then. What about if a player is released in March from a team that folded the previous season.
I would like to use the real transactions as they happened but im not sure if it would be too much programming to get that to work. For me i prefer having the players on the right teams and playing close to the same amount of games as real life but im not sure if the game can handle the weirdness of the 19th century transactions.

Anyway thats why i prefer the simple approach. An active player is either released or signed from free agency. Or a player is signed from unretirement. Would be great if ootp puts players coming back on their new teams. I prefer to release all players at the end of the year and sign them to new teams in January unless they played for different teams during the season. But in anycase they are either released or signed.
No loans, players not reporting, team folded from which the player being traded layed for.
I may be wrong but i think right now is too keep 19th century transactions as simple as possible for now.
Of course i could be wrong.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by BaseballMan

Well we know the game can work with real team movement.

It can be done by hand but the 'game' doesn't follow 19th century reality even one tiny bit. It is so bad they should be ashamed of themselves for pretending 19th Century play is included. It is only 20th Century play in the years 1871-1900.

[BaseballMan]

Well i cant really complain because 19th century was probably put in as a gift. For the longest time it wasnt in the game and i can understand why. How do you simulate the constant changes in the rules back then? 8 strikes for strikeout then 4. Players loaned to teams and never playing for one of them, erratic schedules, missing data in the database, parks that have incomplete data.
I would like 19th century play to be as close to reality as possible but for now i think we will have to take what we can get.
Maybe if we could organize all the problems we have with 19th century play and things we see wrong it would help Markus see what he can fix. But i think we need to remember that most likely Markus never intended to put it in the game.

[swampdragon]

Markus made one big move for the 19th century in the last patch when he put in a global fatigue reset. There are just too many franchise changes, teams folding, etc, to ever expect 1871-1891 historical leagues to be out of the box historical. But 19th century gets a little better every year. Maybe OOTP14 will make some more progress.

[BaseballMan]

I agree.

[Spritze]

I'll just lower my expectations to less than zero then since that seems to be the consensus.

[swampdragon]

I'm just trying to be realistic. You have all of the franchise changes to make, and if that actually happened, I'd just be more upset about the scoring of earned runs. I do think that next year Markus should try to back up to 1892 on a historical basis. That should at least be within reach. I just don't think he'd ever try to swallow all those structural changes in one bite.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

There are just too many franchise changes, teams folding, etc, to ever expect 1871-1891 historical leagues to be out of the box historical.

Other than with the 1871-75 NA, the franchise changes aren't that bad. It's just a matter of getting historical leagues to recognize when clubs switch leagues, when they begin and end, and when leagues pass into and out of existence. I suspect the bigger issue would be getting the AI to handle the kind of player usage typical in the small rosters of the time.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Other than with the 1871-75 NA, the franchise changes aren't that bad. It's just a matter of getting historical leagues to recognize when clubs switch leagues, when they begin and end, and when leagues pass into and out of existence..

All this is contained in the Lahman teams.csv PLUS the real as played schedules exist as well as the scheduled schedules.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

I suspect the bigger issue would be getting the AI to handle the kind of player usage typical in the small rosters of the time.

The only challenge I find is the players who both pitch and then play the field on their non-pitch days. Other than that small rosters work quite well. AND that should be fixed for 20th century play anyway.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Spritze

All this is contained in the Lahman teams.csv ...

But OOTP needs to understand it. As it stands now it only understands teams moving to new locations and teams being added. It has no capacity to make sense of clubs nor leagues passing into and out of existence. (To me that wouldn't seem to be a big problem to address, but then I'm not privy to the way OOTP is coded on such matters.)

Originally Posted by Spritze

... the scheduled schedules.

Excluding the 1871-75 NA and 1876 NL, that is. There were no published league schedules for those seasons. (One can probably fashion a reasonable facsimile for the 1876 NL, but the NA is another matter entirely.)

Originally Posted by Spritze

Other than that small rosters work quite well.

Even 11- and 12-man rosters?

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Even 11- and 12-man rosters?

How were rosters that small set up and used? Presumably 1 full time pitcher, then one of each other position, plus 1 or 2 utility guys (who could probably also pitch)?

[swampdragon]

That's right. There were some teams that only used 11-12 men all year. There were a lot more who just would get some semipro player to fill in for one game when they got shorthanded. The 1876 St. Louis Browns only used 10 players all season long. The 10-11 man rosters were standard.

Most of the roster expansion up through the end of the century was pitching staffs. The 1901 Tigers only used 12 position players all year, counting Harry Lochhead's one game played. The champion White Sox started the season with 11 position players but released Dave Brain after 5 games and played with 10 for over half the season before picking up Jimmy Burke and Pop Foster.

[swampdragon]

When I say the 19th century game works fairly well, I am not saying that you can just sim a season and expect decent results. OOTP AI is never going to change pitchers by having the starter trade places with the right fielder. But you can control the lineups and substitutions yourself and play out games. You will get decent results except for earned runs. The biggest obstacle to that method was pitcher fatigue, and Markus has solved that with the global fatigue reset in the latest patch. All of the workarounds now actually work. It has taken a long time for the game to get to this point, and I prefer to see the glass as half full.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

OOTP AI is never going to change pitchers by having the starter trade places with the right fielder.

Why not? OOTP used to do this 7 versions ago. Maybe it can again.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

I prefer to see the glass as half full.

I don't see the glass in any special way but all the bourbon and bonbons that used to be in it are gone.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by swampdragon

When I say the 19th century game works fairly well, I am not saying that you can just sim a season and expect decent results. OOTP AI is never going to change pitchers by having the starter trade places with the right fielder. But you can control the lineups and substitutions yourself and play out games. You will get decent results except for earned runs. The biggest obstacle to that method was pitcher fatigue, and Markus has solved that with the global fatigue reset in the latest patch. All of the workarounds now actually work. It has taken a long time for the game to get to this point, and I prefer to see the glass as half full.

The problem is though that those work-arounds only apply to human controlled teams, so you;re still going to get some issues with teams you don't control.

[swampdragon]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

The problem is though that those work-arounds only apply to human controlled teams, so you;re still going to get some issues with teams you don't control.

I'm an old APBA/Strat/DMB player. I have no problem with being in commissioner mode and controlling all the teams.