1800's

[Spritze]

Well, how do you like them apples.
See the attached screenshot.
Turns out that other than the 1871 league creation draft one CAN have players begin their careers on their correct teams, one CAN have an odd number of teams in a league, leagues CAN contract and expand and such. I've always been told this was impossible but apparently not so.
THEREFORE
The newest versions of the SpritzeDB's (out this weekend I hope) will take all this into account.

I added a tenth team to 1871 NL (to make it even) plus 4 fake teams to a fake AL, changed all NA league teams to NL, AA to AL, added the fake teams to every year there was only one league, made the UA and PL a Western Division of the NL, made the FL a Western Division of the AL. So all that bit is now automated. If you have rookies go to their original teams instead of a draft that part is also automated. I have been told before that a draft is REQUIRED in the 1800's but near as I can tell that is only for 1871.

When a team disbands you will need to release its players as they get stuck on the dead team. You'll need to keep the fake teams empty of real players (unless you wish to use them). Roster size needs to be at the 15 minimum. Probably more I can't think of right now but you get the drift. Since most of this works Out-Of-The-Box we'll need to harrange Markus to make the changes necessary to play 1800's baseball, the changes necessary are the few items that currently need to be done by hand. If they could be automated that would be semi-wonderful. Things like automagically releasing players on contracted/defunct teams would be awesome.

[BaseballMan]

Nice.
I think you could also delete all the teams and just add the 1871 teams.
Might be quicker than assigning them to the 1871 teams if someone was starting from scratch.

Yeah there are a lot more things you can do with the 1800's now.
I would suggest making a list of all the transactions if using real rosters.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Well, how do you like them apples.

I added a tenth team to 1871 NL (to make it even) plus 4 fake teams to a fake AL, changed all NA league teams to NL, AA to AL, added the fake teams to every year there was only one league, made the UA and PL a Western Division of the NL, made the FL a Western Division of the AL.

The draft is not required for 1871 if you have the right historical teams. The only way to turn it off though is in advanced mode. The wizard does not give you an option. You have to go advanced and unclick hold inaugural fantasy draft.

NB: You will need to download Fhommes historical schedules. There is a problem in 1873 when auto importing the Marylands and Canaries get switched on the schedule, it is kind of a big deal since the Marylands only played 6 games in there short existence. It is easily edited though. The standard game has no 19th century schedules and the schedule generate will not generate a schedule for an odd number team sub league. So you need schedules.

I have played through 1885 with no problems other players staying with their dead team. The game imports the real AA teams into the AL fine. I think it should move them when the AA folds. There should be an issue with league switching if the franchise ids are the same for Lahman. I think he gives different franchise IDs for the team when it is AA and when it is NA.

[fhomess]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

NB: You will need to download Fhommes historical schedules. There is a problem in 1873 when auto importing the Marylands and Canaries get switched on the schedule, it is kind of a big deal since the Marylands only played 6 games in there short existence. It is easily edited though.

I think I fixed this, but if someone downloads and finds this to still be true, just send me the corrected schedule and I'll update the zip file with yours.

[Spritze]

Thanks, I'll download those schedules and add them into the schedule hopper. Hopefully OOTP will use them as the default. I'll name them like the 1901-2010 default schedules. If it works the same that will make them the automatic default.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

the schedule generator will not generate a schedule for an odd number team sub league. So you need schedules.

I have played through 1885 with no problems other than players staying with their dead team.

So you are saying that if we include the correct schedules there is only one item to clean up in OOTP12 to have real 19th century baseball? The players on dead teams need to be released? Holy Moley! That is awesome.

Everything else works? Wowsers!

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

NB: You will need to download Fhommes historical schedules.

Just wondering, but what are these based on? Are they 'as played' or 'as scheduled'?

I've got the 'as scheduled' schedules from the NL from 1877 onwards, and all of the AA schedules. (The one caveat here is the 1899 NL schedule, which went some revisions prior to the season which added several three-way doubleheaders not on the originally adopted schedule. There is also the question regarding the fact that Cleveland abandoned its home park during the 1898 and 1899 seasons and became a road team, and Louisville abandoned its home park during the 1899 season and became a road team, and whether a schedule reflecting that should be available.)

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Just wondering, but what are these based on? Are they 'as played' or 'as scheduled'?

I've got the 'as scheduled' schedules from the NL from 1877 onwards, and all of the AA schedules. (The one caveat here is the 1899 NL schedule, which went some revisions prior to the season which added several three-way doubleheaders not on the originally adopted schedule. There is also the question regarding the fact that Cleveland abandoned its home park during the 1898 and 1899 seasons and became a road team, and Louisville abandoned its home park during the 1899 season and became a road team, and whether a schedule reflecting that should be available.)

Fhommes has both as played and as scheduled from 1887 to 1900. Prior to 1877 is just as played.

I am not sure if the 1898 and 99 issues are addressed haven't gotten that far in the sim. I think he used retrosheet to build the schedules but although the number of as played games are the same as stated on retrosheet and there is the right number of games against the right opponents it seems retrosheet's day of the game are sometimes different. It might be as simple as me putting the wrong day for my league starting date and not adjusting to the matching schedule. I will have to check. Actually I think this might be the issue I remember when loading for my AAA league sometimes the start date was different from the majors although it was the same schedule until I unchecked auto adjust start date.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by Spritze

So you are saying that if we include the correct schedules there is only one item to clean up in OOTP12 to have real 19th century baseball? The players on dead teams need to be released? Holy Moley! That is awesome.

Everything else works? Wowsers!

The only issue I may had is in 1871 particularly there are a lot of high scoring games. I think this is due to the inability to import neutralized stats for fielding. I did check the actual outcomes though and there were a lot of high scoring games that year. This was a period before players used gloves and fielding was not near as good as today. The real data show a lot of errors, recorded not errors in the data, for fielders so you get a lot of high scoring games but the pitchers have low ERAs due to a lack of earned runs. Fielding ratings are often crap for many positions in this era using real stats. Being able to use an .odb file and import neutralized stats may help this. Then again this was before gloves and fielding just may have been crap compared to today.

I noticed this goes away as you approach the 1880's which is somewhat consistent with the beginning of gloves appearing in the league. I think it was late in the 1870's when Al Spalding used his first base glove and wasn't laughed at and the trend started to catch on.

[Spritze]

1871
The National Association of Base-Ball Players begins play and is the first professional baseball league in the United States. The last year of operation would be 1875.
The striker may call for a low or high pitched ball. A "low ball" is ball that is a fair ball that is between the knees and the waist of the striker. A "high ball" is a ball that is a fair ball that is between the striker's waist and shoulders.
The striker is permitted to overrun first base provided that he returns without attempting to run to second.
1872
"Unfair" balls are identified as any ball that is delivered over the striker's head, hit the ground in front of home base, delivered to the opposite side that the batter strikes from or come within one foot of the batter. These types of pitches are required to be called in the order they are delivered after the first ball is pitched.
1876
The National League becomes the second professional baseball league in the United States. It is still in existence today.
The umpire was allowed, during the game, to ask a bystander whether a catch had been fairly made before rendering a decision.
1877
If a batted ball strikes a base runner, while not occupying a base, he is declared out.
1879
After the first inning the first batsman of subsequent innings shall be the striker who follows the last batter to complete a time at bat.
1880
The home team no longer had to bat in the bottom of the ninth inning if they had more runs than their opponent.
1882
The American Association is formed. It would operate until 1891 and then be absorbed and combined with the National League.
1883
National League - A foul ball must be caught on the fly to put the batsman out.
American Association - Foul balls are allowed to be caught on the fly or first bound to retire the batter.
1884
The Union Association is formed and plays its only professional season.
National League - The pitcher is allowed to deliver the ball to the batter in any manner.
American Association - The pitcher must deliver the ball to home plate with his hand passing below his shoulder.
1885
American Association - All pitching restrictions were removed on June 7th.
1887
The National league and the American Association agree to follow the same set of playing rules. A strike was defined as a fair ball that was between the batter's knees and shoulders. The batsman was awarded first base after being hit by a pitched ball only if he attempted to avoid the ball. Bats were allowed to have one flat side.
1889
Any fair batted ball that was hit over a fence less than 210 feet from home plate entitled the Batsman to two bases.
1890
The Players' National League of Base Ball Clubs is formed and plays its only season. It becomes the first league to institute what is now known as “the infield fly rule.” The rule stated that if a Base Runner was on first base and there were less than two outs and the Batsman made a fair hit so that the ball would fall within the infield and the ball touches any fielder whether held by him or not before it touches the ground, the Batsman was out.
1892
National League and American Association of Base Ball Clubs - Bats were no longer allowed a flat side and had to be round.
Any fair batted ball that was hit over a fence less than 235 feet from home plate entitled the Batsman to two bases.
1894
National League and American Association of Base Ball Clubs - The NLAABBC's first attempt at the modern day infield fly rule is instituted. It stated that the batter is out if a fly ball is hit that can be handled by an infielder with first base occupied with only one out.
A foul hit, other than a foul tip, as the result of a bunt attempt is a strike.
The batter is out if, with two strikes, a bunt attempt results in a foul hit.
1895
National League and American Association of Base Ball Clubs - The infield fly rule is modified. It now states that the batter is out if a fly ball is hit that can be handled by an infielder with first and second bases occupied, or first, second and third bases occupied with only one out.
A ball tipped, or a foul tip, by the Batsman which rises above his head that is caught by the catcher within the catcher's 10-foot lines, is a strike.
1899
National League and American Association of Base Ball Clubs: If the catcher interferes with the Batsman and prevents him from hitting the ball the Batsman is awarded first base.

[BaseballMan]

Originally Posted by fhomess

I think I fixed this, but if someone downloads and finds this to still be true, just send me the corrected schedule and I'll update the zip file with yours.

Good to hear.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Biggio509

I am not sure if the 1898 and 99 issues are addressed haven't gotten that far in the sim. I think he used retrosheet to build the schedules but although the number of as played games are the same as stated on retrosheet and there is the right number of games against the right opponents it seems retrosheet's day of the game are sometimes different.

I haven't looked at it in awhile, but from what I remember, the 1899 NL schedule is a major pain in the backside. The story goes like this: after the schedule was originally adopted, Louisville began to complain loudly about the schedule because it contained no Sunday home dates for the club. Eventually, after a protracted battle, the schedule was revised and Louisville got some Sunday home dates. Only these were in the form of three-way doubleheaders (that is, Louisville would host two different clubs on the same day). A few other changes were made as well. I've found some of the revisions published in various sources, but I don't think all of them were covered.

So that's the problem with the as scheduled version.

About half-way through the season Cleveland abandoned its home park due to extremely poor attendance and became a road team. Most of these games simply switched the visitor to be the home club, but there were a few changes in game dates as well. Late in the season Louisville likewise abandoned its home to become a road team.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Spritze

1876

The umpire was allowed, during the game, to ask a bystander whether a catch had been fairly made before rendering a decision.

Andres Galaraga came along 130 years too late.

[mparks19732]

The high scoring games in 1871 aren't too far off since back then the games had many errors and therefore you could have low ERA and high score. I admit that it does get a little high at times. I had 2 games back to back where I had to pull the starter since he was exhausted. I scored a total of over 100 runs total in those two games alone but only had 6 earned runs since the error were early in the innings. Had 35 total errors in one and I think it was like 25 in the other. Games went 9 innings each. Had 9 at bats for some players. Still nothing like the real life Niagras vs Columbias in 1869. The score was 209 - 10. Every player for Niagara scored between 20 and 25 runs including pitcher. The box score didn't paste correctly but when reading it, it's supposed to be the innings 1-9 and total for each team.

Niagara

40

20

9

0

18

19

26

58

19

--

209

Columbia

2

3

1

0

1

3

0

0

0

--

10

[BaseballMan]

Theres a really good book on 19th century baseball and hoe baseball started called "Baseball-The Early Years" by Harold Seymour.
In it you will find more than just stats and the more famous storys of those years but also the little developments that made the game what it became by 1903. A lot of little things we think started later in baseball was actually already there in the 1850's & 1860's. Its kinda like an early version of Bill James Abstract imo. But if you like 19th century baseball you should really
check it out.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by mparks19732

The high scoring games in 1871 aren't too far off since back then the games had many errors and therefore you could have low ERA and high score. I admit that it does get a little high at times. I had 2 games back to back where I had to pull the starter since he was exhausted. I scored a total of over 100 runs total in those two games alone but only had 6 earned runs since the error were early in the innings. Had 35 total errors in one and I think it was like 25 in the other. Games went 9 innings each. Had 9 at bats for some players. Still nothing like the real life Niagras vs Columbias in 1869. The score was 209 - 10. Every player for Niagara scored between 20 and 25 runs including pitcher. The box score didn't paste correctly but when reading it, it's supposed to be the innings 1-9 and total for each team.

Niagara

40

20

9

0

18

19

26

58

19

--

209

Columbia

2

3

1

0

1

3

0

0

0

--

10

They score 209 runs, but they still didn't score in every inning! What were they doing in the 4th?

[Biggio509]

Catching their breath? All that running made them tired.

[BaseballMan]

Looks like neither team scored in the 4th. Maybe they all went for a beer.