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iOOTP - General Discussions Talk about iOOTP Baseball, the baseball management simulation for iPhone/iPod/iPad |
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07-22-2011, 12:20 AM | #21 |
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Thanks
All good comments. If nothing else, this thread generated a lot of good discussion
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07-24-2011, 09:07 AM | #22 |
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FWIW, Diamond Mind's online game originally had Morgan rated average (on a 5-level scale) but recently changed him to "Vg," or very good after bowing to customer complaints. That tells me that a competitor even found that the stats don't support that Morgan was the Gold Glove caliber fielder that people seem to remember him to be.
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07-25-2011, 11:31 AM | #23 | |
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Quote:
I have enjoyed this discussion and appreciate the general tone of those involved. It is good to be able to discuss areas where some find weakness, and if substantiated, may lead to an improved tweak of the game. With that said, I cannot allow the above to go unchallenged. Davy Lopes won the 1978 NL Gold Glove, while Manny Trillo was a three (3) time winner of the Gold Glove Award (1979, 1981, and 1982). Were they as good as or better than Joe Morgan? Not sure, it was slightly before I really got into baseball, but the defensive metrics tell me there is an argument to be made that (at various points of their careers) they were.
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07-25-2011, 11:58 AM | #24 | |
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Sorry
Quote:
I just heard it said on ESPN that perhaps the only better second baseman than Alomar in the last 70 years was Joe Morgan. Made me feel vindicated to hear that |
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07-25-2011, 12:34 PM | #25 |
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Rev,
I think you are confusing the ranking of second basemen as overall players vs. as fielders only. Those of us who think he was overrated as a fielder do not deny his greatness as an overall player. I have him as the best player of the 70's, best on the great Reds teams and one of the two best second basemen ever, with Eddie Collins, but ahead of Hornsby, Lajoie, Gehringer, Alomar, Sandberg and Biggio. He was an average, even below average, defensive second baseman who had numerous years as the best offensive player in the league (4 times led in oWAR and twice second). That was his greatness. WAR, including his negative dWAR, has him as 25th best player ever. ESPN's assessment seems to be as to him as an overall player (and is a gross understatement as he was assuredly significantly better than Alomar). It does not address the more limited issue of his defense. Last edited by tanda; 07-25-2011 at 03:19 PM. |
07-25-2011, 01:19 PM | #26 |
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It wasn't Joe Morgan that said it, was it...?
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Life is Good! Last edited by CHOWDERHEAD; 07-25-2011 at 01:24 PM. |
07-25-2011, 03:33 PM | #27 |
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I do agree that it is extremely hard to rate a player on the defensive side on the game. But another point is I think that's what makes this game great in general is the heated discussion that it can cause. And Joe's shortstop during alot of the Big Red Machine years was Davey Concepcion. And it could be the combination of the two working together is what made them look great to the coaches and scouts. I remember Barry Larkin talking on MLB network about how having consistency in your middle infield was the key to great defense, because the more guys play together the learn where the other guys is going to be around the bag and can make up for some of your mistakes. But really good discussion.
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07-25-2011, 09:19 PM | #28 |
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very good
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07-25-2011, 09:22 PM | #29 |
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also...
Hate to get stuff stirred up again but also found it odd that on the 76 Reds George Foster and Ken Griffey Sr. are both rated higher on defense than Geronimo (Gold Glover) and Geronimo had a gun for an arm but the other guys have stronger arm ratings. There was no way that Foster or Griffey were as good defensively or had better arms than Geronimo in 1976. Sorry!
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07-25-2011, 10:42 PM | #30 | |
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Quote:
Geronimo: 4 assists (vs. 12, 13 and 9 in surrounding years), dWAR -0.7 Foster: 9 assists among all OF positions, 0.6 dWAR Griffey: 10 assists among all OF positions, -1.0 dWAR So, Geronimo's assists dropped before picking up next year. That explains his low arm in 76, particularly v. the others. You could argue that people stopped running on him, but why did he rebound to 9 in 77? As to overall rating, I assume you are comparing their ratings at different OF positions. Foster and Griffey do not have higher CF ratings than Geronimo. So, it is a bit apples to oranges. Nonetheless, Cesar scores as below average in 76. Based on metrics, the ratings appear fairly justified. The question is whether the metrics are correct or the reputations, since Griffey and Geronimo score lower than their reputation. dWAR does have Cesar at 5.5 total for his career which is good for CF with fairly short career. It just has him with a bad year in 76, the worst of his career. Edit: I just looked at advanced fielding. His assist drop was NOT due to fewer runners testing him. He had the second most runners in his career try to advance on him in 76. His kill % was 2.8-5.6% every year from 74 to 77 except 76 when it was 1.1% which was his lowest ever for a full season. His bad throwing year appears to have hurt his arm and overall rating. Last edited by tanda; 07-25-2011 at 10:51 PM. |
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07-25-2011, 11:37 PM | #31 |
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1 thing never changes, when it comes to subjective defensive evaluation, everyone thinks 'their guy' is the best. Of course, they can't all be the best. You have to at least consider that the guys you weren't watching might be better. Everyone makes great plays occasionally. With all of the statistics available today, if you can't find any to support your opinion, it should make you question yourself.
Most Yankee fans are certain Texeira is was the best first baseman in baseball last year. Of course, the Cards, Mets, A's, Red Sox, and others are just as certain. Daric Barton won the Fielding Bible award. Of course, he doesn't have the name recognition to win a Gold Glove. |
07-26-2011, 06:31 AM | #32 | |
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yes
Quote:
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07-26-2011, 09:42 AM | #33 |
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I don't think catchers will ever get to same statistical level that fielders have. It's just the nature of the position. The legend of Bench might be insurmountable. I have no idea how a great current defensive catcher, like Yadier Molina, stacks up against him. Ozzie Smith's legend is probably similar. Last year's top SS, Troy Tulowitski, had a 1.1 dWAR. Ozzie's peak was 3.1, and he broke 1.7 several times.
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