historical transactions / retire accdg to history bug

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by thehef

There is nothing (there is) in the historical txns file on or around Oct 14th for Koufax; no release (Last game date = 10/2/1966) or retirement (Release is on 1/1/1967)

Since you refuse to look for yourself I will likewise refuse to look for you any longer. Sorry but all this conjecture is just downright silly. Just the facts ma'am as Joe Friday would say.

[thehef]

I was going by the fact that there is nothing in the historical transactions file, as displayed in OOTP. Are you suggesting that there are transactions in the file that take effect in the game, but do not appear in the historical txns list as displayed in OOTP? If so, then I was unaware of that, which is why I made the statement that "there is nothing in the historical txns file..."

As for looking for myself, as I indicated, the historical txns file is in odb format. Apparently you have either the source (non odb) file or some neato program that allows you to read it, or your service squid is translating for you. Not refusing to look for myself, I was simply unaware of how I would do just that. I would be very interested in doing so. Please share the info, as it would be very useful!

At any rate, in the pursuit of facts rather than conjecture, is there any way to determine why Koufax retires immediately at the end of the 1966 season? As you indicated, there is no retirement entry in the hist txns file, so it's not that. There is also a) no release txn that shows in OOTP, nor b) enough time elapsed between a theoretical release (that is not indicated in OOTP) and a retirement to say that "Koufax became a free agent, nobody signed him, so he retired." At least from my perspective. I could be wrong. But an immediate retirement at age 30, after a spectacular season - that just so happens to coincide with his real-life retirement, suggests that something, somewhere, is forcing him to retire as he did in real life.

Edit: Re-read your post and noticed "release is on 1/1/1967" - that clears part of it up (and negates my first paragraph above). But it doesn't explain why Koufax retires on 11/14/66.

[Spritze]

There is no way to read an ODB file.

Contact M'sRule to get a human readable copy. Let him know that you have a current NDA with OOTP unless you don't.

The one I have is about 2 years old but that covers the 60's.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by thehef

But it doesn't explain why Koufax retires on 11/14/66.

ReRead please, variations below.........
LAST MLB GAME 10/2/1966,
FINAL MLB GAME 10/2/1966,
DID NOT PLAY ANYMORE IN THE MLB AFTER 10/2/1966
MLB CAREER ENDED 10/2/1966
THE END CAME ON 10/2/1966 (as far as the MLB is concerned)
AND IT CAME TO PASS THAT ON 10/2/1966 THIS PLAYER PASSED FROM THE GRIP OF MLB HISTORY

You do know lots of players continued to play in the MiLB or Japan or the Senior League or wherever after their MLB career ended right?

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Spritze

ReRead please, variations below.........
LAST MLB GAME 10/2/1966,
FINAL MLB GAME 10/2/1966,
DID NOT PLAY ANYMORE IN THE MLB AFTER 10/2/1966
MLB CAREER ENDED 10/2/1966
THE END CAME ON 10/2/1966 (as far as the MLB is concerned)
AND IT CAME TO PASS THAT ON 10/2/1966 THIS PLAYER PASSED FROM THE GRIP OF MLB HISTORY

You do know lots of players continued to play in the MiLB or Japan or the Senior League or wherever after their MLB career ended right?

Sure. But then what is the purpose of unchecking Retire According to History?

[thehef]

OK, so upon further investigation & testing, there are two separate issues, one involving the historical txns file, and the other not:

- The Kekich/Purdin release issue has to do with the historical txns file. In these examples, they spent the entire 1966 season in the Dodgers' minor-league system after playing a bit with the big club in '65. If unchecking Miss Seasons Accdg to History and using...
a) the OOTP12 transaction file, these guys will remain in the Dodgers' system
b) the OOTP18 transaction file, these guys will be released (and may prematurely retire due to being unsigned)

- The Koufax retirement issue has nothing to do with the historical txns file. I can't be certain, but what appears to retire him is the '1966' value in the finalGame field in what used to be the Master.csv file and is now probably tucked away somewhere in the historical_database.odb file. I don't know with which version OOTP changed, however:

a) In previous versions of OOTP, if the Retire Accdg to History box was unchecked, Koufax and others would not retire according to history (suggesting that the unchecking of the box tells OOTP to ignore the finalGame field).
b) In recent versions of OOTP, if the Retire Accdg to History box was unchecked, the game still reads the finalGame date - ignoring the unselection of the checkbox - and retires the player.

IMO both a)'s above are the way to go, because if you instead want to mirror history and have Purdin/Kekich not available to the '66 Dodgers and want Koufax to retire after the '66 season, checking those two boxes will accomplish just that.

Basically, with the a)'s (i.e., "the way it used to work") the two checkboxes function as they are labeled.

Right?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by thehef

OK, so upon further investigation & testing, there are two separate issues, one involving the historical txns file, and the other not:

- The Kekich/Purdin release issue has to do with the historical txns file. In these examples, they spent the entire 1966 season in the Dodgers' minor-league system after playing a bit with the big club in '65. If unchecking Miss Seasons Accdg to History and using...
a) the OOTP12 transaction file, these guys will remain in the Dodgers' system
b) the OOTP18 transaction file, these guys will be released (and may prematurely retire due to being unsigned)

- The Koufax retirement issue has nothing to do with the historical txns file. I can't be certain, but what appears to retire him is the '1966' value in the finalGame field in what used to be the Master.csv file and is now probably tucked away somewhere in the historical_database.odb file. I don't know with which version OOTP changed, however:

a) In previous versions of OOTP, if the Retire Accdg to History box was unchecked, Koufax and others would not retire according to history (suggesting that the unchecking of the box tells OOTP to ignore the finalGame field).
b) In recent versions of OOTP, if the Retire Accdg to History box was unchecked, the game still reads the finalGame date - ignoring the unselection of the checkbox - and retires the player.

IMO both a)'s above are the way to go, because if you instead want to mirror history and have Purdin/Kekich not available to the '66 Dodgers and want Koufax to retire after the '66 season, checking those two boxes will accomplish just that.

Basically, with the a)'s (i.e., "the way it used to work") the two checkboxes function as they are labeled.

Right?

Kekich and Purdin both show back up on the Dodgers in 1968.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by thehef

b) In recent versions of OOTP, if the Retire Accdg to History box was unchecked, the game still reads the finalGame date - ignoring the unselection of the checkbox - and retires the player.

This is NOT true in my OOTP18 league.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Spritze

This is NOT true in my OOTP18 league.

Fair enough. I'd be curious if Koufax retires right after the WS in your OOTP18 league, and - if not - what the difference is. He sure seems to - every time - in mine. I can't be sure that it's specifically because the game is reading the finalGame date from the historical database, but as you said...

Originally Posted by Spritze

LAST MLB GAME 10/2/1966,
FINAL MLB GAME 10/2/1966,
DID NOT PLAY ANYMORE IN THE MLB AFTER 10/2/1966
MLB CAREER ENDED 10/2/1966
THE END CAME ON 10/2/1966 (as far as the MLB is concerned)
AND IT CAME TO PASS THAT ON 10/2/1966 THIS PLAYER PASSED FROM THE GRIP OF MLB HISTORY

... and MY game is reflecting this, even with the box unchecked.

[Spritze]

When you start a league and say you want historical transactions it never goes off no matter what you do later. The boxes are meaningless after that. If you give it some thought you will realize why blinking it on and off would be a bad idea. If you been doing all this testing based on those boxes, well that is on you. I don't think they should ever be displayed.

I also have no Purdin/Kekich challenges.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by thehef

Fair enough. I'd be curious if Koufax retires right after the WS in your OOTP18 league, and - if not - what the difference is. .

He retires in 1976 after becoming a closer for a few years. Won the Cy Young in 1967 and 1969.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Spritze

When you start a league and say you want historical transactions it never goes off no matter what you do later. The boxes are meaningless after that. If you give it some thought you will realize why blinking it on and off would be a bad idea. If you been doing all this testing based on those boxes, well that is on you. I don't think they should ever be displayed.

Not entirely sure what you mean here, but I don't monkey with the Historical Transactions, Retire Accdg to History, or Miss Seasons Accdg to History checkboxes. I check or uncheck them - as is needed - once and that is that. I'm particularly puzzled by the part in red: My testing is based upon the settings being what I chose (ON for historical txns, OFF for RAH and Miss Seasons). What else would I be basing the testing on, for the purposes of what's being discussed in this thread? As for the part in blue, if they aren't displayed, how would we choose ON or OFF? (I'm guessing there's more to the explanation as to what you're trying to say here, and that's why I'm not quite understanding.)

Originally Posted by Spritze

I also have no Purdin/Kekich challenges.

... not sure if that means that in your game Purdin/Kekich are not released and remain with the Dodgers, or if you simply don't care that they are released so it's not a challenge for you.

Originally Posted by Spritze

He retires in 1976 after becoming a closer for a few years. Won the Cy Young in 1967 and 1969.

One time several versions ago he went until age 45 in 1981 and was still an effective reliever... At any rate, I just ran another OOTP18 test with somewhat simplified settings to see if I can match your results re Koufax' retirement, etc.:

HISTORICAL LEAGUE WIZARD
STEP 1
select season = 1964
all defaults except I change adjust/weaken numbers to 150-35-30-10

STEP 2
check Use Real Historical Transactions

STEPS 3 & 4
defaults

STEP 5
nothing here should matter, although I check Play in Commissioner Mode and do not take control of any team

Game is created...

GLOBAL SETTINGS
defaults except:
disable Complete Coaching System & Owner Goals
turn off WPA graphs, game logs, save replays, save 3d movements
change keep news/injury/txns logs from None to 2, 10, and 10 years
change preseason predictions to On Demand
disable storylines

PLAYERS & FACEGEN
defaults except:
disable player personality, morale, chemistry, nicknames
disable away uni's, baseball cards

AI SETTINGS & ALMANAC
no changes

LEAGUE SETTINGS
Rules - no changes

Financials - no changes

Options
disable Manual HoF voting
disable Spring Training

Players - no changes

Historical
defaults except:
uncheck Retire Accdg to History
uncheck Miss Seasons Accdg to History
(Use real historical txns is already checked)

Stats & AI - no changes


I used all OOTP18-delivered files. (I sometimes use a modded injuries files and - as I mentioned earlier in this thread - I almost always use the OOTP12 historical txns file, but for this test I verified that I'm using OOPT18-delivered files all-around.)

Results?
-Kekich & Purdin released on 1/1/66
-Koufax retired right after the 1966 WS

Do you see anything different about my setup & process above that differs from yours and would therefore explain why Koufax retires after the '66 WS in my game, but does not in your game?

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by thehef

Historical
defaults except:
uncheck Retire Accdg to History
uncheck Miss Seasons Accdg to History
(Use real historical txns is already checked)

This bit. Trannys override your changes.
Historical Tran ON AND Retire Accord ON =Koufax Retire in 1966
Historical Tran ON AND Retire OFF =Koufax Retire in 1966
Historical Tran OFF AND Retire ON =Koufax Retire in 1966
Historical Tran OFF AND Retire OFF =Koufax Retire when he sucks

Missed Seasons works like this too.

It is way simpler than you make it.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by Spritze

This bit. Trannys override your changes.
Historical Tran ON AND Retire Accord ON =Koufax Retire in 1966
Historical Tran ON AND Retire OFF =Koufax Retire in 1966
Historical Tran OFF AND Retire ON =Koufax Retire in 1966
Historical Tran OFF AND Retire OFF =Koufax Retire when he sucks

Missed Seasons works like this too.

Right, 'tis the way it works in OOTP 18. However...

With Historical Txns ON and Retire Accdg to History OFF:

a) OOTP18 - Koufax retires after 1966 WS, not because of the txn file; probably because of program logic that looks at last year played (finalGame). Txn file includes a 1/1/67 release date so even if you immediately manually unretire him and place him back on LA, he gets released.
b) OOTP15 - Koufax stays active but is released on 1/1/67.
c) OOTP12 - Koufax stays active and remains on LA.

a) Bad, not flexible. Can't use real txns and have players not retire according to history.
b) Better, slightly, but still requires manual intervention.
c) Best. Flexible. RAH works with or without real txns. Allows what-if scenario without having to see Duke Snider star for the Giants, Willie Mays as a Brave, Mickey Mantle play for the A's, and Ted Williams don the Yankee pinstripes.

Originally Posted by Spritze

It is way simpler than you make it.

All I'm saying is that the way it worked in OOTP 12 is the way it should work now. Agree or not, that is way simpler than the 34 posts to get here would suggest

[Spritze]

You will need to convince Markus and M'sRule (the OOTP transactionater).

Luck of the Irish to ya.