Smart, Hard Worker Won't Learn New Position

[majesty95]

Biggio - Disagree with all your points.

A. I believe it's been mentioned that not showing the rating does not prevent the CPU from playing a player there.

B. There is absolutely a rating even if it's not shown. The calculation is the same. There is just a modifier to not display it.

C. The rating essentially acts as a scouting tool. So regardless of whether it's because of your physical scout in game, it's still a metric given to analyze a player. The game is scouting for you even if it doesn't use actual scouts. The game should give you the rating and then tell the CPU not to play a player rated lower than x in certain categories at certain positions.

D. Based on the OP, the rating doesn't make a significant difference, especially at 3B. So if a player can play there effectively (albeit with a weakness in a skill they only use every few games) they should have a rating shown. Don't penalize me as a user from knowing my guy could play reasonably well at a position bc you couldn't think of a better way to limit the CPU from playing a player there (which still dosent work any way). If a guy has the ability and experience to play a position, I should be able to see that because obviously the CPU does too. We should both, then, be able to make decisions based off of that on whether we want to play that player there for any significant amount of time.

[majesty95]

Another way to look at it is like this: say all of my depth charted players (players with an actual rating in the game) are injured and I need an emergency fill in. A guy may not have a ML DP rating but maybe he played there in HS and can competently fill in for a game or two. The way OOTP is set up, I cannot distinguish this player from a guy that has played LF every inning of every game for his entire life. If I'm not in commissioner mode I can't see these hidden ratings. The CPU will use these ratings in that scenario but I would not be able to if not playingf in commish mode. That's not right.

Also, think of a position player filling in at P in a blowout. They generally don't take the player who has played LF his entire life. It's usually a guy that pitched in HS or at some point in life. His rating may be a 5 but it's still higher than the guy who doesn't know what the top of the mound looks like. The game should show us this for these emergency situations. If I the. choose to then use that guy in my starting rotation, that's on me. But at least I have the full info on my players which any real life GM would.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Game playing a player at a position he's not qualified for is probably a bug rather than by design.


OP said the player's fielding stats weren't good, just didn't commit any errors. Regardless of his turn DP rating, his other ratings aren't that good either.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by mainstreet

If this were true, then experience at a position wouldn't affect the rating at all. (Or, it would be a strange negative correlation -- a more experienced rating 50 would be the same as a less experienced rating 45?)

Unless experience is increasing the range/error/arm by that amount... but of course it isn't, otherwise all players would get a substantial 1B rating (to represent that which they already have) the instant they complete a game there, which obviously they don't.

Experience obviously impacts a player's ability to field his position, in addition to the other ratings.

I am not sure where experience factors in. I am sure it is the error, arm, turn DP, and range ratings that are used to determine if a play is made. Experience at the current position may affect those ratings or be in the calculation in some way.

What I am pretty sure about is a guy with no rating at 3B with roughly equal experience at 3B of a guy with a 20 rating will make all the same plays but they won't turn as many DPs if they have equal range, arm, and error. The fielding rating is just a guideline to how suitable a guy is at the position. The component ratings are used to determine if a play is made. I think experience influences those calculations somehow but I am not sure how.

Lets say you have 2 SSs both with a 12 rating. One has more range and one has better error.
The one with better error will make less errors and the one with less range will have less attempts. So the 12 rating does not make them equal.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by majesty95

Biggio - Disagree with all your points.

A. I believe it's been mentioned that not showing the rating does not prevent the CPU from playing a player there.

B. There is absolutely a rating even if it's not shown. The calculation is the same. There is just a modifier to not display it.

C. The rating essentially acts as a scouting tool. So regardless of whether it's because of your physical scout in game, it's still a metric given to analyze a player. The game is scouting for you even if it doesn't use actual scouts. The game should give you the rating and then tell the CPU not to play a player rated lower than x in certain categories at certain positions.

D. Based on the OP, the rating doesn't make a significant difference, especially at 3B. So if a player can play there effectively (albeit with a weakness in a skill they only use every few games) they should have a rating shown. Don't penalize me as a user from knowing my guy could play reasonably well at a position bc you couldn't think of a better way to limit the CPU from playing a player there (which still dosent work any way). If a guy has the ability and experience to play a position, I should be able to see that because obviously the CPU does too. We should both, then, be able to make decisions based off of that on whether we want to play that player there for any significant amount of time.

A. That is an AI bug that has never really been worked out. The AI just doesn't always make good decisions on the 25 man roster. So out of necessity guys get put where they shouldn't be. You also have to understand hitting is a factor so hitting may outweigh position ratings at certain positions. Also what we don't know is does the AI realize this guy can have a rating.
B. No the formula says 0 rating if you drop below a threshold. There is no rating for guys who are below a threshold. Compare this to 1B, RF, and LF where any one can get a 1 rating. There is no hidden rating. You would see it in the editor if it existed.
C. Exactly it is something that is used as a guideline that helps you and the AI. If you don't mind losing out on DPs because your 3B or SS is too slow to turn the DP go ahead. Just realize real life managers would DQ a guy from playing either position if his transition is too slow to turn a DP. You won't see it in the stats easily but your team will miss out on a lot of DPs.
D. Exactly what I have been have saying the position rating makes no difference. Rating at position has no effect or a very small effect at best on your stats. It is your components. What the stats don't show is how DP's you didn't make because your 3B couldn't get the ball to 2B fast enough.

How in the heck are you penalized by the lack of ratings when it is clear that:
a. Position rating has little to no effect on outcome.
B. This is a prop to help you make a decision.
C. You can ignore the fielding rating and I don't care I will play a CF with little range, a SS with a weak arm, or a 3B who can't turn a DP. Why in the world you want to do any of that is beyond me but hey you have the component ratings and stats to make a decision on. You can make the decision on error, range, arm, and DP if you want.

I see in no way this penalizes you as a player. Arm seems to be little factor in corner OF but I also want a guy with a good OF in RF. The position rating doesn't help me here. So I have to look at the other ratings. You are not being penalized by this system you just can't make a lazy pick Madden style with the guy with the highest position rating. You have to make the decision if losing DPs is worth the extra fielding or bat this guy brings.

I don't get the whole we are penalized line here. Just because the game doesn't give him a rating doesn't mean you can't play him there. You can make any decision you want. Just realize the position rating is a limited tool in all cases. Like I said two 12 rated shortstops might have very different skills. One might have very low errors but less range. One might have more range but make more errors. You might find a 12 rated SS that turns more DPs but has less range than another 12 rated SS.

So the number is a guideline. Maybe one guy is 14 at RF and one is 12. Maybe the 12 has better error but less range. If I have a plus range CF I might go with the 12 guy because range is less important. If I have an average range CF I might want a lower position rated guy at LF or RF who has better range. I have never gone solely on position rating. I always take into effect things like can a high range SS make up for a 3B with a little less range or can a plus range CF make up for lower ranged LF and RF. Am I willing to give up some chances to have a guy with lower range but surer when he gets to the ball?

In no way should position ratings be the only thing you look at when deciding who to play at a position or where to play a guy. Like I said if want to say we don't need no stinking double plays and play guys at 3B and SS with plus range and error but no DP go ahead. You will get good fielding stats but you will be at the bottom of the league in turning DPs.


Also the position rating was never meant to mean they can't play a position. It means that a manager would not select them for that position in the MLB hence no rating. A lot of no rating SS might be good SS for a rookie league but very poor compared to MLB players. These are guys who typically move position as they move up. A no rating guy could play 3B in beer league just fine but he would cut the mustard in the big leagues.

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by majesty95

Another way to look at it is like this: say all of my depth charted players (players with an actual rating in the game) are injured and I need an emergency fill in. A guy may not have a ML DP rating but maybe he played there in HS and can competently fill in for a game or two. The way OOTP is set up, I cannot distinguish this player from a guy that has played LF every inning of every game for his entire life. If I'm not in commissioner mode I can't see these hidden ratings. The CPU will use these ratings in that scenario but I would not be able to if not playingf in commish mode. That's not right.

Also, think of a position player filling in at P in a blowout. They generally don't take the player who has played LF his entire life. It's usually a guy that pitched in HS or at some point in life. His rating may be a 5 but it's still higher than the guy who doesn't know what the top of the mound looks like. The game should show us this for these emergency situations. If I the. choose to then use that guy in my starting rotation, that's on me. But at least I have the full info on my players which any real life GM would.

When was the last time you saw a MLB team put a guy in a position he hasn't played since HS? Never. This exactly why the AI sometimes plays guys in a position with no rating. They are in that pinch because they have 4 1B on their roster. A human should never have a 25 man roster on any given day where this has to happen. That is why every MLB club and you should too has utility IFs and a competent MLB or high minors experience backup for every position.
My fielders are usually like this.
2 C
1 at each position
1 SS/2B
1 1B/3B
1 or 2 CF/LF/RF
DH if applicable.

I would have to have two IF or 2 OF positions injured in the same game to have to put in some one who is not qualified. I haven't had it happen yet. This isn't football. I always have an option at triple A for each backup even if they aren't ML caliber. I will call them up until I can find a free agent or someone on the waiver wire to be a back up.

As far as a player taking over as a pitcher you can see his pitching ratings. They are on a different tab.

[pgjocki]

To Biggio509: the answer to your question is Bryce Harper

[mgoetze]

Originally Posted by majesty95

Where did you get these stats? Beltre has turned 427 double plays in 20,351.2 innings at 3B...

Adrian Beltre » Statistics » Batting | FanGraphs Baseball

DPS = Double Plays Started = 315
DPT = Double Plays Turned = 13
DPF = Double Plays Finished = 26

And where did you get your stats?

[Biggio509]

Originally Posted by pgjocki

To Biggio509: the answer to your question is Bryce Harper

Good one. Wasn't that two months after he graduated! What I meant is oh crap it is the eighth inning and we have an injury lets put a guy who hasn't played in a position since HS in today because we have no one else. Biggio played a couple of position he never played in the majors for the same reason the Nats wanted to move Harper to OF but it wasn't a someone has to go out and we got no else decision.