Which Historical Database Should I Use?

[Eddie Paxil]

I'm going to be running a dynasty set to start play in 1861. I will be running it with edited fictional players until 1871 when I will begin to import historical rookies. (I've tested this with Lahman's & Gambo's DB and it works fine.)

My question pertains to which database best suits what I'm looking for. I'd like the most amount of players possible as my league will never have a color line. I'd like Negro Leaguers, Japanese players, and obscure minor leaguers. However I'd also like stability.

Here are my personal impressions of the databases available. i'd like your thoughts on them. If you have another option maybe an older database to use feel free to mention it if you you know where I can get it.

Lahman's: Pros- Stable as hell. Cons- Limited to players in ML history as they debuted as rookies. Limited for my purposes.

Gambo's: Pros- Has everything I want in terms of players etc, and easy to use. Cons- Designed for use with the neutralized stats option not sure how it would react to being set as draft option for a custom league.

Spritze: Pros- Also has everything I want in terms of players and probably more. Cons- I've never used anything but Lahman's or Gambo's. Don't know how to use this one.

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by Eddie Paxil

Don't know how to use this one.

Use the Spritze db just like either of the others. No difference at all. It is just a Lahman style db so copy its files over a copy of the standard Lahman and you are all set. PLUS for some strange reason it is my personal favorite!

[Eddie Paxil]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Use the Spritze db just like either of the others. No difference at all. It is just a Lahman style db so copy its files over a copy of the standard Lahman and you are all set. PLUS for some strange reason it is my personal favorite!

OK so it's a massive substitute file. Nice. At the moment I'm leaning towards trying yours because I'm not sure how well Gambo's will import since it was designed to import as neutralized stats. I'd still like impressions of all of them or of older ones that may be out there.

[Spritze]

The Garlon/Spritze db is the neutralized db that is in the game so it is kinda pointless to use that one.

None of the modded db's work with the neutralized db that is in the game so don't use that option when setting up your game. If Gambos db is neutered already you don't need to use that option for it anyway. The Spritze db is only semi-neutered, all the minor league and negro league and japanese records are neutered to match that years major league results and for player age and competition level but the major league is left unchanged.

Modded db's also are not compiled so importing complete history is not advised. Since you are starting in the 1800's this will not apply to you.

I am not sure you can start earlier than 1871 in OOTPx so your 1861 attempt may be problematical.

I have used all the db's other than the Gambo one (just because it is too similar to mine, just not as cool ). There is a Japanese db by the Murmurer and Cooperstown and Negro league templates by Cooperstown. They all seem pretty good to me.

[Eddie Paxil]

Originally Posted by Spritze

The Garlon/Spritze db is the neutralized db that is in the game so it is kinda pointless to use that one.

I didn't know that. That's interesting I thought it was Lahman's.

Originally Posted by Spritze

None of the modded db's work with the neutralized db that is in the game so don't use that option when setting up your game. If Gambos db is neutered already you don't need to use that option for it anyway.

According to Gambo's thread on his db release. you're supposed to choose the neutralized option when starting with his file. That's why I've hedged on using it. Because I'm starting with a fictional custom league and won't be able to select that option.

Originally Posted by Spritze

I am not sure you can start earlier than 1871 in OOTPx so your 1861 attempt may be problematical.

Already tested it, and it works beautifully. I tested a run at it with Gambo's db. I started in 1869 with fictionals. The 1870 draft was all fictionals and the 1871 draft was all players imported from Gambo's db.

I already have the 1861 file I'm going to use set up and ready to go. I just have to choose a db for when 1871 rolls around. I have edited the fictional players it starts with to have all last names from real players that played between 1855-1861. I used the New York times box scores to do this.

Originally Posted by Spritze

I have used all the db's other than the Gambo one (just because it is too similar to mine, just not as cool ). There is a Japanese db by the Murmurer and Cooperstown and Negro league templates by Cooperstown. They all seem pretty good to me.

I appreciate your input. I especially appreciate the heads up on how to use your db. Look for the Dynasty I'm going to run in the Dynasty area.

[Eddie Paxil]

At the moment I'm kind of SOL. Spritze's db isn't loading for me. Gambo's needs to be "neutralized". At the moment I'm leaning towards going with an older non neutralized Gambo's. Love some input on this or help with Sprite's db.

[Eddie Paxil]

I'm pretty sure I just got Sprtize's db to work. I substituted his files for the internal db exactly as I did for Gambo's instead of Lahman's 5.6 and it worked beautifully. The internal one appears to be Lahman's 5.5.

[Spritze]

Garlon and Markus have added a lot of columns to the "Lahman" master.csv, enough so that the real Lahman itself may not import into OOTPx anymore. I'll test it and see what I get. Let you know.

[Gambo]

Originally Posted by Spritze

None of the modded db's work with the neutralized db that is in the game so don't use that option when setting up your game. If Gambos db is neutered already you don't need to use that option for it anyway.

Actually you do. I have mine set up the way the provided database is so that the neutralized stats are separated from the real statistics. This way the game shows real historical stats but bases ratings on the neutralized statitistics. If you dont select neutralized it will use the real statistics. However, this will be problematic as there are gaps in the real statistics while the players missed seasons or was in the minors. So, you MUST select neutralized.

Originally Posted by Spritze

Modded db's also are not compiled so importing complete history is not advised. Since you are starting in the 1800's this will not apply to you.

You can import the complete history using mine.

Originally Posted by Spritze

have used all the db's other than the Gambo one (just because it is too similar to mine, just not as cool ).

Grumble

[Gambo]

In all honesty I often use my database for draft leagues and a couple of online leagues use it too. It should not be problem at all using it for a draft league.

What would be your concerns with using it in a draft league?

[Spritze]

BTW As of this morning I have now used the Gambo db as well.

Using his db did make me decide to include the rest of the necessary Lahman files with my next release. The only reason I did not previously was that I did not have Mr. Lahmans permission to do so.

I could also easily run my db through the OOTP/Garlon/Spritze neutralization process as well. It only takes 43 seconds (1871-2008) to do so as I have that program to hand, so I think I may as well. Currently I just use it to fill gaps for the war years and any other missing years. Since my db includes minor league seasons those are not missing. I sorta think 43 seconds is a reasonable amount of my life to burn on providing neutralized stats. I mean what else am I gonna do with those seconds? Bake a cake?

I have about 60 more SABR minor league stars to add to the db and then I will release the next version. The next release ADDS the complete major and minor league records of all players whose careers ended during the war (WWII)years and 300 more of SABR's minor league stars as well as an additional 23 negro leaguers using their actual Negro, Cuban and Mexican league stats and the Japanese league records of all those who have also played in the majors. I will also include the real historical pitch data and draft values and career fielding numbers that have been attached to the Lahman master.csv. That will complete the Spritzefication of the next release.

[Eddie Paxil]

Originally Posted by Gambo

In all honesty I often use my database for draft leagues and a couple of online leagues use it too. It should not be problem at all using it for a draft league.

What would be your concerns with using it in a draft league?

My concern is that since your db is set up for using neutralized stats I might not get the full benefit of the players you added in. I've seen what happens to the Negro leaguers ratings when you import the players using real stats instead of neutralized stats. I'm testing on my own still, and plan on posting my findings as I go.

[clamel]

Originally Posted by Spritze

BTW As of this morning I have now used the Gambo db as well.

Using his db did make me decide to include the rest of the necessary Lahman files with my next release. The only reason I did not previously was that I did not have Mr. Lahmans permission to do so.

I could also easily run my db through the OOTP/Garlon/Spritze neutralization process as well. It only takes 43 seconds (1871-2008) to do so as I have that program to hand, so I think I may as well. Currently I just use it to fill gaps for the war years and any other missing years. Since my db includes minor league seasons those are not missing. I sorta think 43 seconds is a reasonable amount of my life to burn on providing neutralized stats. I mean what else am I gonna do with those seconds? Bake a cake?

I have about 60 more SABR minor league stars to add to the db and then I will release the next version. The next release ADDS the complete major and minor league records of all players whose careers ended during the war (WWII)years and 300 more of SABR's minor league stars as well as an additional 23 negro leaguers using their actual Negro, Cuban and Mexican league stats and the Japanese league records of all those who have also played in the majors. I will also include the real historical pitch data and draft values and career fielding numbers that have been attached to the Lahman master.csv. That will complete the Spritzefication of the next release.

so in a very short time we see this new masterpiece.
Hopefully the patch that will fix the wrongly imported pitch selection for all these great pitcher of yesterday will soon to follow your DB.
Heaven waits for us all....

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by clamel

so in a very short time we see this new masterpiece.:

I think of it as more of a mousterpiece.

Originally Posted by clamel

Hopefully the patch that will fix the wrongly imported pitch selection for all these great pitcher of yesterday will soon to follow your DB.

Unfortunately OOTP currently ignores the pitch data of modded db's. If it did not do that I am sure the pitch selections would have already been fixed by a modder or two or seven. It would be nice if the pitch selection matrix was not part of an altered Lahman Master.csv but was rather its own entity as that might allow for more pitch accuracy as historical pitches could be added, updated and revised by any and all interested parties. Currently I believe pitch selection is contolled by the Neyer/James pitchers book only. There are perhaps many more alternate sources that could be used for this purpose to give a more complete picture.

It continually amazes me as to the level of dedication users bring to this game. The historical photo paks are totally hot and all the different db's rock. Markus has a totally fired up set of unpaid "employees" who continually make his game better.

Props to you all.

[Gambo]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Unfortunately OOTP currently ignores the pitch data of modded db's. If it did not do that I am sure the pitch selections would have already been fixed by a modder or two or seven. It would be nice if the pitch selection matrix was not part of an altered Lahman Master.csv but was rather its own entity as that might allow for more pitch accuracy as historical pitches could be added, updated and revised by any and all interested parties.

Technically it ignores the pitch data of any database, modded or not. I do agree with everything else though.

[Eddie Paxil]

I spent the weekend testing the Gambo & Spritze's databases for my purposes. What I did was create a 1926 fictional league with fictional players. Then I set the Automatically Import Historical Rookies option on. I then set the database path to the db I was testing. I then simmed until 1936 looking at the draft classes all the way along.

Gambo's- Worked perfectly. There were no issues with the "bonus" players at all. I can whole heartedly recommend this database to be used for a league that either wants to start before 1871 and then bring in the real players once 1871 rools around, or a league that just wants to start fictional and bring in historical players after.

Sprtize's- Also worked beautifully. I can also say this one would be great for the previously stated purposes.

So which one am I using. The million dollar question. I'm going with Spritze's. In the ten year period I simmed both databases offered a nice array of Negro League players. However, in Spritze's db was what seemed like one to two Japanese players ever season. Also there were little things I saw that made me prefer Spritze's. I liked Josh Gibson's ratings better out of Spritze's. In Spritze's Joe Dimaggio arrives at 16yo. While in Gambo's he arrives at 18yo. You can never have too much Joe D.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by Eddie Paxil

Spritze: Pros- Also has everything I want in terms of players and probably more. Cons- I've never used anything but Lahman's or Gambo's. Don't know how to use this one.

I tried using Spritze's with Version 9. It does have more players (career minor leaguers and Nippon League) than Gambo's, but for me the deal breaker was that when you use the 'import historical rookies' option, Spritze's imports the players to the team for which they played the most seasons, whilst Gambo's imports them to the team with whom they started their minor league careers. Spritze kindly explained his reasons for doing it his way, but his reasons are not mine, and they essentially make his db useless to me. If you're not using 'import historical rookies', and not importing the complete history, Spritze's would probably be superior.

Originally Posted by Gambo

You can import the complete history using mine.

Grumble

Yes, you can, and yes, he does. I did a complete history to 1962 last night, and it took about 2 1/2 hours to complete. Please note that it gave the appearance of 'hanging for about twenty minutes before the progress bar kicked in. I recommend you kick it into gear, then go find something else to do for quite awhile.

My experience with the modders is that Spritze responds quickly to questions/problems with his db.

[Curtis]

dola.

I have a couple of Spritze/Gambo db questions of my own.

If you select 'import historical rookies', and you don't keep up with auto-expansion (I don't want to add the last four teams), what happens to the players who would arrive on teams that don't exist? Ideally they would form an 'amateur draft' class and be eligible to be drafted (enhancing competitive balance), but my guess is they import as free agents (and the rich get richer).

Also, if you select 'import historical rookies', what should be the date for the 'amateur draft'? (Of course, no actual draft would take place.) Should you go with mid-season, or post-playoff?

[Spritze]

Originally Posted by Curtis

If you select 'import historical rookies', and you don't keep up with auto-expansion (I don't want to add the last four teams), what happens to the players who would arrive on teams that don't exist? Ideally they would form an 'amateur draft' class and be eligible to be drafted (enhancing competitive balance), but my guess is they import as free agents (and the rich get richer).

Free Agents is what they become.

Originally Posted by Curtis

Also, if you select 'import historical rookies', what should be the date for the 'amateur draft'? (Of course, no actual draft would take place.) Should you go with mid-season, or post-playoff?

I use the OOTP default date, but I have also tried the springtime when the flowers are blooming and the winter when the turkeys are dying. Just depends on your preference.

BTW, I am most likely changing the team assignations with the next release so that any unaffiliated seasons will be set for a players most seasons team but affiliated teams will be unchanged. So depending on the year a league starts players will be either in the organization they were with that year or if they were unorganized they will be with the team they spent the most seasons with.

[Curtis]

Originally Posted by Spritze

Free Agents is what they become.

I use the OOTP default date, but I have also tried the springtime when the flowers are blooming and the winter when the turkeys are dying. Just depends on your preference.

BTW, I am most likely changing the team assignations with the next release so that any unaffiliated seasons will be set for a players most seasons team but affiliated teams will be unchanged. So depending on the year a league starts players will be either in the organization they were with that year or if they were unorganized they will be with the team they spent the most seasons with.

Thank you for the answers.

I have no idea what your last paragraph is saying. I get that some players will begin games on different teams than they do in your current iteration, but… I think I'm going to need to know what your definitions of 'unaffiliated season', 'affiliated team' and 'unorganized' are.