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Old 05-01-2019, 03:06 PM   #1
HRBaker
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Just throwing this out for comments...

I'm wondering if there shouldn't be an option to request that your team remain in the same level rather than being promoted. I understand there's a lot of issues here - first, the game coding would have to be changed putting new leagues together - second, allowing players to remain where they are might give them another option other than spending more money (which is counter to what OOTP would want)...

But I can't help but be convinced that if your not going to spend at least a few hundred dollars on your team to prepare them for Perfect Level, your very likely going to be a punching bag once you get there.

I reviewed my own two teams in Perfect (one in PT19 and the other in PT20) and in both cases, the dollar difference in purchasing players between the lead team and mine is about $250-$400. In both cases, I'm a .500 team at best (mostly worse). With the limited achievement points available at that level, the only way (short of some super luck on card pulling) to become competitive is to spend another couple hundred dollars in the auction house.

Some of us may be able to do that, but many are not - and some (like myself) simply don't want to.

If the option was available to "stay put" in Diamond, the playing experience would be more fun - and there wouldn't be as much reason for people to try and gain relegation because they are in over their heads.

Just to clarify, I'm not complaining as much as I'm looking for a way to make the game more enjoyable to those that can't keep up with the high spending folks.Competing at a lower level and being competitive would be more enjoyable for those people - and since it would be an option, it doesn't stop those that want to go for it all.

I'm sure a few of you will say you got to the top - AND are competing - without spending large amounts of money - and I believe you - but I think we all have to admit that is a rare scenario. I've said before that someone willing to spend $400-$500 on a team will not only rise to Perfect quickly, but also compete when they get there. That results in the rest of us doing well until we hit Perfect - then becoming the punching bags for the other Perfect teams.

I'd much rather be competing in Diamond and staying there by choice.

Thoughts?
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:09 PM   #2
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My thought would be this can't possibly work. I could spin up a team, drop $200 and check the box to remain in Iron and watch my team crush everybody.

In addition, all tiers would quickly become unbalanced as team figure out which level they can dominate and stay there. The entire point is to move stronger teams up and weaker teams down.
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:17 PM   #3
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My first reaction to your proposal is to ask about the guy who has a good team in a Diamond league but whose idea of "fun" is beating the snot out of everyone else. So he chooses to "stay put" in Diamond and has year after year of 120-42 seasons, continued playoff appearances, and many WS wins. He might be having fun, but I bet few others in his league are.

Should this guy be forced to promote? And if so, on what basis? Record? WS Wins? That's how it works now! Or is there some other type of promotion criteria - some sort of "score" based on your card ratings? It gets very difficult to figure out a good and impartial way to determine this.

I understand where you're coming from, and I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea, because I certainly understand what it feels like to be in a league where you can barely compete, but in any competitive situation like this you're guaranteed to run into people who abuse the system. I don't know the answer here but I'm just pointing that out.
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:39 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HRBaker View Post
I'm wondering if there shouldn't be an option to request that your team remain in the same level rather than being promoted. I understand there's a lot of issues here - first, the game coding would have to be changed putting new leagues together - second, allowing players to remain where they are might give them another option other than spending more money (which is counter to what OOTP would want)...

But I can't help but be convinced that if your not going to spend at least a few hundred dollars on your team to prepare them for Perfect Level, your very likely going to be a punching bag once you get there.

I reviewed my own two teams in Perfect (one in PT19 and the other in PT20) and in both cases, the dollar difference in purchasing players between the lead team and mine is about $250-$400. In both cases, I'm a .500 team at best (mostly worse). With the limited achievement points available at that level, the only way (short of some super luck on card pulling) to become competitive is to spend another couple hundred dollars in the auction house.

Some of us may be able to do that, but many are not - and some (like myself) simply don't want to.

If the option was available to "stay put" in Diamond, the playing experience would be more fun - and there wouldn't be as much reason for people to try and gain relegation because they are in over their heads.

Just to clarify, I'm not complaining as much as I'm looking for a way to make the game more enjoyable to those that can't keep up with the high spending folks.Competing at a lower level and being competitive would be more enjoyable for those people - and since it would be an option, it doesn't stop those that want to go for it all.

I'm sure a few of you will say you got to the top - AND are competing - without spending large amounts of money - and I believe you - but I think we all have to admit that is a rare scenario. I've said before that someone willing to spend $400-$500 on a team will not only rise to Perfect quickly, but also compete when they get there. That results in the rest of us doing well until we hit Perfect - then becoming the punching bags for the other Perfect teams.

I'd much rather be competing in Diamond and staying there by choice.

Thoughts?

The only way, in my opinion, that you can get what you're looking for would be for PT to get rid of the pro/rel model and have "seasons" separated by tiers, with teams being seeded using a formula mixing team success and an overall of, let's say, the top 40 cards (active or not) in somebody's collection. With a ladder tiered system, rewards for winning could be tweaked to make it a real incentive to want to climb the ladder as opposed to wanting to stay at the lower levels where a decent team will rack up PP at a faster pace. What the rewards could be ? It doesn't have to only be PP or packs...the OOTP team could get creative here.



If you leave it at the discretion of the players to toggle a button on or off, people will abuse it to their advantage as much as they can get away with.
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:39 PM   #5
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I feel like there will be a major change to the structure within a couple years. People have figured out how the economy works and more people are sandbagging the lower levels to generate points instead of getting promoted just to lose their PP income.
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:46 PM   #6
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Every single game out there people will do whatever they can to generate game currency in the most efficient way. You have to expect that and design around it instead of slapping band-aid fixes with a new rule for each violation. For all the problems ultimate team has, this isn't one because players actually want to win as many games as possible since there are higher rewards for finishing a week in higher tiers.

Maybe there should be no fixed promotion/relegation and somehow an algorithm determines the strength of each team (say based on total PP value of all players in club/on auction/liquid PP) and distributes them within tiers at the start of each week. it won't be perfect but within the season itself each team is encouraged to do as well as possible
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Old 05-01-2019, 03:56 PM   #7
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I may just be imagining things, but it seems like this idea or a VERY similar variant has been brought up dozens of times, and rightfully shot down every time.
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:15 PM   #8
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I'm new and only made it to Iron. Are the rewards different for each tier? If so, is it generally better to make the playoffs in one league, or merely compete in the the tier up?

If the answer to the second question is "no," then that seems like what needs to be fixed.
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:18 PM   #9
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The issue is not being a punching bag in one season. The issue is being a punching bag in multiple seasons because, for as bad as a team is, there are always 2 that are worse.

The solution that ensures no team is stuck continually playing above their competitive level is to have more relegation. More relegation is more hope.
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:20 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SpacePope View Post
I'm new and only made it to Iron. Are the rewards different for each tier? If so, is it generally better to make the playoffs in one league, or merely compete in the the tier up?

If the answer to the second question is "no," then that seems like what needs to be fixed.
The answer is no, which is why many teams feel penalized for lucky playoff performances in weak leagues.
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:21 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dogberry99 View Post
The issue is not being a punching bag in one season. The issue is being a punching bag in multiple seasons because, for as bad as a team is, there are always 2 that are worse.

The solution that ensures no team is stuck continually playing above their competitive level is to have more relegation. More relegation is more hope.

I can get behind that. I'm also warming up to a final "Champions League" Tier that is exclusive to Perfect Levels winners and relegates and equal number as gets promoted. That would be a single league for the best of the best. Other leagues could expand at least some how many teams are promoted and relegated to ensure some more movement.
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:24 PM   #12
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Agreed about more relegation, especially since the devs told us there would be more movement between levels.
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:27 PM   #13
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could always just promote the 8 teams that make it past the WC round each time. That would cause plenty of churn
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:37 PM   #14
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I appreciate all the comments. I think we all agree there is an issue, but not sure how to correct it (once) and still be fair to the OOTP team.

So far, I could agree to more relegation. By limiting the Perfect Level to the "true" whales, you might find the GB difference over a season between the top and bottom teams as little as 10 games. In that way, teams like mine would fall to Diamond and basically have to sit there until we could find a way to improve our teams enough to take another shot at Perfect.

Right now, after a 100-62 season in Diamond last year, I am 25-39, 4th Place, and already 18 games out of 1st. By all measures I should be returning to Diamond next season - but with only 2 teams going down, I'll be here suffering equally for who knows how many seasons.

PS: I should also point out that I wasn't originally suggesting the "stay put" option would be available at all levels - ONLY for Diamond Level. It isn't until you reach the Diamond/Perfect plateau that you must invest more cash if your not powerful enough already.
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Old 05-01-2019, 04:42 PM   #15
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For all the problems ultimate team has, this isn't one because players actually want to win as many games as possible since there are higher rewards for finishing a week in higher tiers.
For normal in-game achievements, I don't think you get more points at a higher level. Leading off a game with a HR is 50 points in Diamond level, and it's 50 points in Gold level. And when you make the playoffs and do whatever at Iron level, I think you get the same points as if you did it at the Gold level.

So economics-wise, you want to win as many games as possible to get into the playoffs, but I don't think it matters at all what level you are at in terms of the PP reward. So there may be a strong economic incentive to move down a level in order to make the playoffs. It's not like the Football Association where when you make the top division, you get to share in a boatload of media cash.
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:00 PM   #16
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As has been alluded to, I think higher PP rewards for higher tiers may solve a lot of the problems (and maybe create some new ones).
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:02 PM   #17
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If they aren't relegating as many teams as they're promoting, everyone will drift toward the top. This is an issue in a lot of other games that they solve by making ladder promotion and demotion equal in frequency at the highest ladders and also periodically resetting the ladder.

They also virtually always give the best rewards based on where you are on the ladder rather than achievements.

As someone in Iron. I'd be a lot more interested in investing in the game if I felt like I could get some ROI by climbing the ladder.
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:02 PM   #18
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Just my distant thoughts and humble 2 cents - The Perfect level should perhaps be much steeper - like maybe 8-12 teams get demoted from Perfect level each season. Perfect level should feel like King of the Hill ... make it hard for people to stay there. And give some kind of recognition for number of seasons 'survived' at Perfect league ... not in PP because most of the people at Perfect are plenty rich, but maybe a callout on the Universe or Manager History screen.
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:03 PM   #19
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As has been alluded to, I think higher PP rewards for higher tiers may solve a lot of the problems (and maybe create some new ones).
A lot of people are concerned about this allowing the rich to get richer. The problem is that anything that rewards winning will deserve this type of criticism. I think that this might be an improvement, but I also recognize that it will definitely create many, many more problems.
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Old 05-01-2019, 05:17 PM   #20
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I appreciate all the comments. I think we all agree there is an issue, but not sure how to correct it (once) and still be fair to the OOTP team.

So far, I could agree to more relegation. By limiting the Perfect Level to the "true" whales, you might find the GB difference over a season between the top and bottom teams as little as 10 games. In that way, teams like mine would fall to Diamond and basically have to sit there until we could find a way to improve our teams enough to take another shot at Perfect.

Right now, after a 100-62 season in Diamond last year, I am 25-39, 4th Place, and already 18 games out of 1st. By all measures I should be returning to Diamond next season - but with only 2 teams going down, I'll be here suffering equally for who knows how many seasons.
I would not count on getting relegated. My boys have been are up for the 3rd straight week in Perfect after two straight 100+ loss seasons. Others have sucked more... So I stay up. But I digress...

My guys are 15-50 right now and if I counted it all up probably cost me $650 or so to be this futile, my most expensive purchase being my Brouthers at $120. The majority of the others were in the $20 to $50 range.

I made the choice and got too big too fast, however, the result would still be the same.

I'm going to dump them all tonight in the AH and use the funds to play with all LIVE cards. My previous 6 teams have all been metal, team, or theme based so it might be fun to do the speculation game and hawk the AH right before the LIVE updates take place for and scoop and flip. Up until now I've been a good mark for the sellers in the AH.

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