3-D Graphics

[rpriske]

I am about to say something I never expected to say.


I agree with The Wolf.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Surely the obvious upside is a potential increase in sales, leading to an even better game?

And this thread reminds me of this song:

695. Said Hanrahan (John O'Brien) - YouTube

People who want a baseball game with graphics will stick with MLB: The Show.

There is a great deal of potential risk here, with a huge potential downside.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by rpriske

I am about to say something I never expected to say.

I agree with The Wolf.

rpriske:living proof that people's judgment actually can improve over time.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

People who want a baseball game with graphics will stick with MLB: The Show.

It's not really a good comparison, because even with graphics OOTP wouldn't be competing against that game. FIFA doesn't compete against FM.

Would you complain if people on the MLB: The Show message boards starting asking for OOTP level of stats realism or customisation, because that game isn't a text sim?

Originally Posted by The Wolf

There is a great deal of potential risk here, with a huge potential downside.

I'm not arguing that there is risk. There's risk in any business decision, but I don't agree that there is no possible upside at all.

[BigCity]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Would you complain if people on the MLB: The Show message boards starting asking for OOTP level of stats realism or customisation, because that game isn't a text sim?

Exactly the point. No game should be limited to some user-defined description of what category of enjoyment it falls into. Hypothetical...

If a baseball game could be developed that did everything perfectly, from the graphics representation in the field to the small print in a contract, would that be defined as a bad thing? If the final result can't be a bad thing then anyone striving to make such a product shouldn't be held back from attempting it either.

Yes, there is risk - but there is risk in life as well, and to avoid risk is to avoid success.

[The Wolf]

Games that leave their niche and try to become something else commonly fail.

OOTP is successful. Risking that on graphics is not wise.

Smart people minimize risks.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Games that leave their niche and try to become something else commonly fail.

Do you think Football Manager left it's niche by adding graphics?

[BigCity]

I'm sorry Wolf, but it sounds like a "the sky is falling" scenario to me.

I think your assuming the absolute worst possible outcome.

I've watched OOTP merge with another game company twice, unmerge and survive both - watched Markus struggle with two very questionable releases and survive that as well. I don't imagine for a minute that a graphics enhancement that isn't well accepted is going to be anywhere worse than that.

Expecting the entire game to fail as a viable product is over-reaching in my opinion.

Maybe our disagreement is because we're imagining two different things here. I am seeing the same in-game process we see now with an option for ball-flight animation and moving players chasing-throwing the ball, runners moving between bases, and everything else in the game as it is now. You seem to be expecting an "MLB: The Show" type baseball presentation which I highly doubt Markus is considering - much less capable of doing.

OOTP has about 80 field locations currently the ball can go to. I would expect the new "ball flight" coding simply has to display either a fly ball, pop up line drive, or grounder to each of those 80 locations plus a few "special" plays - and coordinate the fielders and runners to move as is already determined in the existing code.

That kind of a change is not earth-shattering nor does it suggest significant risk beyond a couple plays going awry or timing being off - and if those kind of problems DO surface, the graphics option can be turned off until it is fixed.

[Gil Thorp]

Originally Posted by BigCity

I am seeing the same in-game process we see now with an option for ball-flight animation and moving players chasing-throwing the ball, runners moving between bases, and everything else in the game as it is now. You seem to be expecting an "MLB: The Show" type baseball presentation which I highly doubt Markus is considering - much less capable of doing.

Ball flight animation was the first thing I disabled when it was introduced. I'm pretty sure OOTP's first generation graphics will be dots moving around the field. I've seen this in earlier versions of FM and in Pro Football Simulator. I'm sorry, I just don't understand how this adds anything to the game. What I see happening, is that once graphics are introduced, people will be continually calling for more and better graphics and eventually will be expecting an "MLB the Show" type presentation while "everything else in the game as it is now", things like AI in game decision making, an AI defensive substitution logic that still sometimes borders on the absurd etc. takes a backseat.

[BigCity]

Originally Posted by Gil Thorp

Ball flight animation was the first thing I disabled when it was introduced. I'm pretty sure OOTP's first generation graphics will be dots moving around the field. I've seen this in earlier versions of FM and in Pro Football Simulator. I'm sorry, I just don't understand how this adds anything to the game. What I see happening, is that once graphics are introduced, people will be continually calling for more and better graphics and eventually will be expecting an "MLB the Show" type presentation while "everything else in the game as it is now", things like AI in game decision making, an AI defensive substitution logic that still sometimes borders on the absurd etc. takes a backseat.

I understand your concern, but here's the reality; First, it's not up to anyone to say we don't understand the value of ball animations when one could say the same thing about online leagues. The options are there - not because they appeal to everyone but BECAUSE they appeal to someone. This is what gives OOTP a broader customer base - many options equals many more customers. If anything, that philosophy will help continue the OOTP brand, not shorten it.

Second; unless OOTP sales somehow went "through the roof" I don't see it ever becoming an "MLB: The Show" because that kind of graphics capability would be a significant investment I don't think OOTP could manage. "The Show" is funded by Sony Entertainment, a resource far exceeding OOTP's resources and as such, OOTP could never enter the same graphics category as The Show.

Markus primary goal for OOTP has ALWAYS been to create an accurate statistics and business model, and I am sure that is still his priority. As said before, the addition of a few on-field animations neither changes the definition of the game nor risks a catastrophic meltdown.

It's simply an enhancement of an option; nothing more, nothing less.

[Charlie Hough]

Originally Posted by Gil Thorp

What I see happening, is that once graphics are introduced, people will be continually calling for more and better graphics and eventually will be expecting an "MLB the Show" type presentation while "everything else in the game as it is now", things like AI in game decision making, an AI defensive substitution logic that still sometimes borders on the absurd etc. takes a backseat.

It's really quite simple: unless this game series innovates and offers significant changes to encourage existing users to upgrade and attract new users, improvements in the other areas of the game will eventually languish or we'll see the end of OOTP.

The reason that OOTP Developments now has the resources to hire more developers and graphic designers is that it innovated. Among other things, including improvements to OOTP as a PC game, it introduced an iOS game that exceeded the company's expectations and helped generate an entirely new revenue stream. Releasing iOOTP didn't improve the AI in the OOTP PC game, but it sure as hell attracted some new users, some new buyers for the PC product who learned about it through iOOTP, and it brought in more money to the company, which helps drive further hiring and development.

And the reason that the PC game has benefited from this endeavor and has not suffered any appreciable loss in focus or improvement is that the company had a plan, added dedicated resources, and made sure that it was done the right way.

The same thing can and will almost certainly happen with 2D or 3D graphics. New resources will be added and it will be done the right way. In the long term, it will benefit the game series if it attracts new users, generates new revenue, and encourages people to keep buying and upgrading.

There are already many users who are still playing OOTP 12 or OOTP 13 because they don't see enough of a difference in the newer versions. Well, if you add graphics, that's a major difference, and it could create a big boost in sales, which could subsequently fund more hiring to do more things with the PC game and other products.

But if sales of the PC game stagnate, which had been happening for several years based on reports from OOTP Developments, then we're all in trouble. The next step from that is a decline, and no amount of AI improvement or in-game strategy tweaks is going to rescue a series from dropping sales. It takes bigger innovations and bigger changes, along with a continued focus on the nuts and bolts that are just as important. I trust that OOTP Developments will take the right approach.

The company has already beaten the odds to achieve its level of success thus far. It has already created some great products that are among the best available on the market. Why does the prospect of adding graphics cause such fear and consternation, and why do people abandon their trust in the company when this is discussed? Many things have been added to this game over the years and handled well. Why does this necessarily have to be any different?

[Kobeck]

Originally Posted by BigCity

I'm sorry Wolf, but it sounds like a "the sky is falling" scenario to me.

I think your assuming the absolute worst possible outcome.

I've watched OOTP merge with another game company twice, unmerge and survive both - watched Markus struggle with two very questionable releases and survive that as well. I don't imagine for a minute that a graphics enhancement that isn't well accepted is going to be anywhere worse than that.

Expecting the entire game to fail as a viable product is over-reaching in my opinion.

Maybe our disagreement is because we're imagining two different things here. I am seeing the same in-game process we see now with an option for ball-flight animation and moving players chasing-throwing the ball, runners moving between bases, and everything else in the game as it is now. You seem to be expecting an "MLB: The Show" type baseball presentation which I highly doubt Markus is considering - much less capable of doing.

OOTP has about 80 field locations currently the ball can go to. I would expect the new "ball flight" coding simply has to display either a fly ball, pop up line drive, or grounder to each of those 80 locations plus a few "special" plays - and coordinate the fielders and runners to move as is already determined in the existing code.

That kind of a change is not earth-shattering nor does it suggest significant risk beyond a couple plays going awry or timing being off - and if those kind of problems DO surface, the graphics option can be turned off until it is fixed.

Marcus could test the waters depth, so too speak, by making a 2d graphic upgrade availabe for say $10.

6.5 was a rock solid version IMO

I have a gut feeling that a simple 2d engine that was somehow triggered by the pbp would be a money maker. And if that engine was moddable then I think there would be no turning back.

And of course I would want a toggle switch for those that want the static ballpark graphics. I know I like them and I will take this oppertunity to thank the people who made and continue to make those additions

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

It's really quite simple: unless this game series innovates and offers significant changes to encourage existing users to upgrade and attract new users, improvements in the other areas of the game will eventually languish or we'll see the end of OOTP.

The reason that OOTP Developments now has the resources to hire more developers and graphic designers is that it innovated. Among other things, including improvements to OOTP as a PC game, it introduced an iOS game that exceeded the company's expectations and helped generate an entirely new revenue stream. Releasing iOOTP didn't improve the AI in the OOTP PC game, but it sure as hell attracted some new users, some new buyers for the PC product who learned about it through iOOTP, and it brought in more money to the company, which helps drive further hiring and development.

And the reason that the PC game has benefited from this endeavor and has not suffered any appreciable loss in focus or improvement is that the company had a plan, added dedicated resources, and made sure that it was done the right way.

The same thing can and will almost certainly happen with 2D or 3D graphics. New resources will be added and it will be done the right way. In the long term, it will benefit the game series if it attracts new users, generates new revenue, and encourages people to keep buying and upgrading.

There are already many users who are still playing OOTP 12 or OOTP 14 because they don't see enough of a difference in the newer versions. Well, if you add graphics, that's a major difference, and it could create a big boost in sales, which could subsequently fund more hiring to do more things with the PC game and other products.

But if sales of the PC game stagnate, which had been happening for several years based on reports from OOTP Developments, then we're all in trouble. The next step from that is a decline, and no amount of AI improvement or in-game strategy tweaks is going to rescue a series from dropping sales. It takes bigger innovations and bigger changes, along with a continued focus on the nuts and bolts that are just as important. I trust that OOTP Developments will take the right approach.

The company has already beaten the odds to achieve its level of success thus far. It has already created some great products that are among the best available on the market. Why does the prospect of adding graphics cause such fear and consternation, and why do people abandon their trust in the company when this is discussed? Many things have been added to this game over the years and handled well. Why does this necessarily have to be any different?

Well said. Not that I am "in the know", but I have been around here a long time, and this just seems like on of the most lackluster years for OOTP in terms of enthusiasm that I've seen in years. I don't know what the sales numbers look like, but it just seems to me that we are indeed starting down that road of apathy unless something significantly new helps give OOTP a "shot in the arm".

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Kobeck

Marcus could test the waters depth, so too speak, by making a 2d graphic upgrade availabe for say $10.

6.5 was a rock solid version IMO

I have a gut feeling that a simple 2d engine that was somehow triggered by the pbp would be a money maker. And if that engine was moddable then I think there would be no turning back.

And of course I would want a toggle switch for those that want the static ballpark graphics. I know I like them and I will take this oppertunity to thank the people who made and continue to make those additions

6.5 is long gone, and frankly a dinosaur compared to the capabilities of 14.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

Smart people minimize risks.

On the other hand, according to the tagline on the poster advertisement for an alcoholic beverage, if you didn't use your back-up plan, you played it too safe.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

On the other hand, according to the tagline on the poster advertisement for an alcoholic beverage, if you didn't use your back-up plan, you played it too safe.

Lol. And that reminded me of a song by the British folk band Half Man Half Biscuit that includes the lyric "A stag weekend* is a poor weekend / if the army is not on standby" lol.

*think a bachelor party, but stretched over a weekend...

[Kobeck]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

6.5 is long gone, and frankly a dinosaur compared to the capabilities of 14.

I was not clear.

My point was that 6.5 cost like $10 and was well worth the money.

I am in no way advocating going back. Just that the money was well spent IMO.

I think dropping a few dollars on a 2D graphic engine would be money well spent. Even if it is absoutly nothing but a stand alone 2D dots moving around thing.

[knightdreamer2k]

I think football manager took if I believe once it added 3-D. There has been an old simple rule in business-you MUST change or you will not exist anymore. I enjoy FM and love the simple yet highly functional graphics it uses to show the action on the field. Heck I even bought lords of football because I liked FM so much.

The thing is I'm more of a baseball fan than soccer. I would love to see a graphics engine along with the text to add to the awesome fantasy that already OOTP already is.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

On the other hand, according to the tagline on the poster advertisement for an alcoholic beverage, if you didn't use your back-up plan, you played it too safe.

Look at the history of PC baseball sims and why they failed. Graphics is one of the leading causes of failure.

Adding unnecessary graphics to OOTP is not nearly important enough to risk having it go away forever.

[The Wolf]

FYI, my stepsister is a computer graphics designer. Over family dinners I am regularly told stories of not just games but programs and entire companies that failed because of bad decisions involving graphics. Knowing those insider stories and watching my favorite game about to make a big mistake does not exactly fill me with confidence.