Not really new

MorseMoose · 04-10-2006, 07:48 AM

I'm not all that new to the game, but I had a question to ask to break the ice.

My question was:

In past versions back-ups were extremely important for various reasons. Now I understand that the screensaver bug is gone, but will losing a season still result in having to start over completely because of a corrupt file?

Markus Heinsohn · 04-10-2006, 07:51 AM

No, files will no longer get corrupted

Also, you have now various auto-safe options as well...

MorseMoose · 04-10-2006, 08:15 AM

All I can say is "wow"! That is extremely great news!

P.S. Your avatar still has "manager" in it. Wasn't the manager was dropped from the game title?

battists · 04-10-2006, 08:29 AM

But of course, it's still ALWAYS a good idea to back up your files. The new version of the game will come with instructions on where your important data files are stored (both for PC and for Mac), and how to back them up.

MorseMoose · 04-10-2006, 08:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by battists

But of course, it's still ALWAYS a good idea to back up your files. The new version of the game will come with instructions on where your important data files are stored (both for PC and for Mac), and how to back them up.

Of course.

f.montoya · 04-10-2006, 09:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

No, files will no longer get corrupted

Also, you have now various auto-safe options as well...

I am pleasantly surprised by this statement. Thanks Markus. I don't know how you do it!!

OakDragon · 04-10-2006, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

No, files will no longer get corrupted

I must say I don't really understand that either. I can see how it would be less likely, but for it not to happen.... isn't that impossible?

Markus Heinsohn · 04-10-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OakDragon

I must say I don't really understand that either. I can see how it would be less likely, but for it not to happen.... isn't that impossible?

It's because of the different system... the new version keeps everything in RAM, and only writes/reads from disk when loading/saving the universe. OOTP 6 constantly loaded/saved stuff...

ifspuds · 04-10-2006, 11:46 AM

No wonder sim speed is so much faster (though I'm sure code optimization helps a tremendous amount). It was so irritating to constantly be saving, loading, saving, loading, ad nauseum, especially when it seemed like it wasn't necessary in some cases. Very good to hear this, Markus.

Cras · 04-10-2006, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

No, files will no longer get corrupted

Also, you have now various auto-safe options as well...

Thank you so much for that. While it is not the sexiest new feature you have put out, but I believe that this may be the most important. Brilliant stuff. Thank you again.

Long_Long_Name · 04-10-2006, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MorseMoose

Now I understand that the screensaver bug is gone

It is! Joy to the world!

I had it often because of pressing Ctrl+Alt+Del, that's good news

.

Jason · 04-10-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

No, files will no longer get corrupted

Also, you have now various auto-safe options as well...

Reason #1,482,482 why Markus rules.

Joshv02 · 04-10-2006, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

It's because of the different system... the new version keeps everything in RAM, and only writes/reads from disk when loading/saving the universe. OOTP 6 constantly loaded/saved stuff...

<-- not a computer savant.

Will constantly storing in RAM make long play in large leagues hard with "low" (i.e., <500) RAM systems?

Hellion9 · 04-10-2006, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joshv02

<-- not a computer savant.

Will constantly storing in RAM make long play in large leagues hard with "low" (i.e., <500) RAM systems?

I'm not sure what you mean by "hard" and thus this may not be terribly useful. If you wonder if long, large leagues will be faulty, than I would think not. If you have to wait a bit between games for the database to be updated, then I could see this being possible. Regardless, it’s only a problem relative to your patience.<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

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I'm basing this response on extensive experiences with the Football Manager series. No question that you will see a certain amount of slowdown with low RAM during certain periods in the game. It does not interfere with the game itself and does not create any complications in FM (I have a 30-something season game going currently and have only 512K of RAM) but it does run a bit slowly, especially during the player signing windows (analogous to the trade-deadline in baseball). I see significant slowdown at the beginning and end of those player-signing windows, but it is not, for me, a problem. I wait an extra minute between reading news and pressing continue. <o

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That said, FM runs MUCH better than predecessors and I assume OOTB will be the same. Hope this helps!

Joshv02 · 04-10-2006, 01:26 PM

Certainly helps -- thanks, Hellion9.

theasfl · 04-10-2006, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

No, files will no longer get corrupted

Also, you have now various auto-safe options as well...

bueno

james17 · 04-10-2006, 02:41 PM

Amazing! I was just wondering last night if we'll have new files to back up and what they would be. Great to hear we'll be informed which files we'll need to back up and great news from Markus on the RAM processing!

DaveHorn · 04-10-2006, 02:48 PM

When you have low RAM (not enough for the application executing) the OS will begin swapping and using the hard drive as temporary RAM. This is the primary cause of slowdown on low ram systems with any application.

Markus's statement is a little misleading. Its impossible to say a file will never be corrupted. Improved design would lead to far fewer chances of corruption but there are way too many things not even in Markus's control that you can never make a blanket statement like "files will no longer get corrupted". i.e. the power goes out while the game is writing the RAM save to the hard drive. I know, stupid example, but the screen saver example isn't much different. Its the OS screwing up the game because the OS is did something outside of the game.

However, this leads me to ask a far more important question to me. I was never concerned with screen saver corrupts or the like because they were outside the games control, I turn off screen save and the issue goes away.

My annoyances were with the corrupts caused directly by game through normal use. As any fairly experienced online commish could tell you backing up your entire league before any single sim is vital because of bad depth charts/lineups could crash and corrupt the game.

So if you read this Markus, my questions are...

1. Most important, if this crash and burn happens, I'm guessing corrupts would no longer occur, because you are no longer saving the files during the sim and now worse case your file after a crash/reload is where is was before you simmed anything to begin with. Could you confirm?

2. Has this portion of code been modified/improved to try to catch depth charts/lineup issues before a crash and burn? If so, what does the game do now?

battists · 04-10-2006, 02:52 PM

I think that Markus's intent wasn't to indicate that file problems can no longer occur, but rather that the one particular problem mentioned has been resolved.

Meanwhile, I can only say, as a beta tester, that my experience has been that when a crash occurs (which happens a lot in beta, of course), I have been bounced back to where I last was prior to simming, and have been able to continue without any problems. Which has been very nice. Not the crashing, but the ability to resume without any data corruption or "unable to load league" or anything like that.

I can't claim whether that's Markus' intended end state or not.

statmeister · 04-10-2006, 04:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

It's because of the different system... the new version keeps everything in RAM, and only writes/reads from disk when loading/saving the universe. OOTP 6 constantly loaded/saved stuff...

If this works the way I think it does, where the hard drive will not be accessed by OOTP except when opening and closing your league, isn't there a danger of losing data should the computer crash, or suffer a power outage and the league/universe file is not closed properly. Your file would not be corrupted, but any game play that took place would be lost.

Markus mentioned auto-safe options. Will the program periodically update the files while game play is going on?

-SM

04-10-2006, 11:46 AM	#9
ifspuds Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 2,117	No wonder sim speed is so much faster (though I'm sure code optimization helps a tremendous amount). It was so irritating to constantly be saving, loading, saving, loading, ad nauseum, especially when it seemed like it wasn't necessary in some cases. Very good to hear this, Markus. __________________ Jeff Watson Former dynasty writer and online league player, now mostly retired

04-10-2006, 01:26 PM	#15
Joshv02 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: , " Posts: 3,082 Blog Entries: 2	Certainly helps -- thanks, Hellion9. __________________ Brookline Maccabees. RIP

04-10-2006, 02:48 PM	#18
DaveHorn All Star Starter Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 1,146	When you have low RAM (not enough for the application executing) the OS will begin swapping and using the hard drive as temporary RAM. This is the primary cause of slowdown on low ram systems with any application. Markus's statement is a little misleading. Its impossible to say a file will never be corrupted. Improved design would lead to far fewer chances of corruption but there are way too many things not even in Markus's control that you can never make a blanket statement like "files will no longer get corrupted". i.e. the power goes out while the game is writing the RAM save to the hard drive. I know, stupid example, but the screen saver example isn't much different. Its the OS screwing up the game because the OS is did something outside of the game. However, this leads me to ask a far more important question to me. I was never concerned with screen saver corrupts or the like because they were outside the games control, I turn off screen save and the issue goes away. My annoyances were with the corrupts caused directly by game through normal use. As any fairly experienced online commish could tell you backing up your entire league before any single sim is vital because of bad depth charts/lineups could crash and corrupt the game. So if you read this Markus, my questions are... 1. Most important, if this crash and burn happens, I'm guessing corrupts would no longer occur, because you are no longer saving the files during the sim and now worse case your file after a crash/reload is where is was before you simmed anything to begin with. Could you confirm? 2. Has this portion of code been modified/improved to try to catch depth charts/lineup issues before a crash and burn? If so, what does the game do now? __________________ Dave HFTC Commish

04-10-2006, 07:48 AM	#1
MorseMoose Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,023 Blog Entries: 4 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	Not really new I'm not all that new to the game, but I had a question to ask to break the ice. My question was: In past versions back-ups were extremely important for various reasons. Now I understand that the screensaver bug is gone, but will losing a season still result in having to start over completely because of a corrupt file?

04-10-2006, 07:51 AM	#2
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,739	No, files will no longer get corrupted Also, you have now various auto-safe options as well...

04-10-2006, 08:15 AM	#3
MorseMoose Hall Of Famer Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 6,023 Blog Entries: 4 Infractions: 1/1 (1)	All I can say is "wow"! That is extremely great news! P.S. Your avatar still has "manager" in it. Wasn't the manager was dropped from the game title?

04-10-2006, 08:29 AM	#4
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506 Blog Entries: 7	But of course, it's still ALWAYS a good idea to back up your files. The new version of the game will come with instructions on where your important data files are stored (both for PC and for Mac), and how to back them up.

04-10-2006, 02:41 PM	#17
james17 All Star Starter Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 1,306	Amazing! I was just wondering last night if we'll have new files to back up and what they would be. Great to hear we'll be informed which files we'll need to back up and great news from Markus on the RAM processing!

04-10-2006, 02:52 PM	#19
battists Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 18,506 Blog Entries: 7	I think that Markus's intent wasn't to indicate that file problems can no longer occur, but rather that the one particular problem mentioned has been resolved. Meanwhile, I can only say, as a beta tester, that my experience has been that when a crash occurs (which happens a lot in beta, of course), I have been bounced back to where I last was prior to simming, and have been able to continue without any problems. Which has been very nice. Not the crashing, but the ability to resume without any data corruption or "unable to load league" or anything like that. I can't claim whether that's Markus' intended end state or not.