Do pitches matter in any of the ootp games?

swaowner · 04-25-2008, 12:17 PM

Was wondering if the pitch selection actually mattered? Cant remember if Markus actually answered this question or not.

Kelric · 04-25-2008, 02:23 PM

Nope, pitch type does not matter. Velocity supposedly does, however. In theory, prospects with higher velocities are supposed to develop quicker/better than those with low velocities.

kingcharlesxii · 04-25-2008, 02:31 PM

I think knuckleball is the only one that matters.

rem · 04-25-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kingcharlesxii

I think knuckleball is the only one that matters.

"

clamel · 04-29-2008, 05:28 PM

This is sad.
Hopefully OOTP9 or 10 will start leaning on this pitch thing.

Baseball Mogul have attention on this, with pitcher having each pitch rated and also whats really fun is that some batters have increase or decrease on certain pitches.
Then one can select pitch-type and location in one-pitch mode.

It will be hard to include but I think it should add an important edge to the play.
The AI will now just "select" a pitch only so the in-game text can have something to say, but on some ocassion one expects ceratin pitches to get a batter out. However I´m very new to the game, but this is something I missed all back in the beginning when I tried out early versions. The old boardgames APBA and Strat-O-Matic had same problems. You just threw a dice and then looked at the result.

Base Stealer · 04-30-2008, 01:36 AM

A word from Markus about velocity and pitches (knuckleball) influence would be great....

Gerry58 · 04-30-2008, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clamel

Baseball Mogul have attention on this, with pitcher having each pitch rated and also whats really fun is that some batters have increase or decrease on certain pitches.

And what kind of statistics are used to 'rate' the pitchers on their different pitches? I'm really curious to know.

SittingDuck · 04-30-2008, 08:04 PM

I think it's basically impossible for historical leagues - they don't even get the pitches accurately assigned for pitchers there. It's not an OOTP thing - it's just that who has that info logged? You know it if you are a fan of a pitcher, but otherwise.... It's the same with PSBB and FPSBB - random assignment of pitch types to historical pitchers. But in the case of fictional players, IMO there should definitely be value to pitches and the ability to throw various pitches. I'd prefer to see the system overhauled - set it as a longterm goal.

Nothing addressed pitching like FPSBB. Each pitch was rated, and each pitcher threw the various pitches at different speeds. It was just great. If OOTP could somehow assign values to the various pitches - a player's ability to throw a pitch with some level of skill, then the game would grow by leaps and bounds.

But as it stands, it matters not - for the most part - that a pitcher throws this or that pitch. Mainly eye candy. And I am not for that at all in a baseball sim. Not at all.

kq76 · 04-30-2008, 08:22 PM

For historical leagues you could make it an option, but I wonder if you could tie the types of pitches they get to the ratings they receive. For instance, someone with great movement but no control would get a knuckleball. I don't know that aspect of the game well enough to say what should determine gives you a changeup, curveball, etc, but I'm sure many here do. And high velocity obviously should go along with a fastball, but I don't know if velocity is a randomly generated thing in itself. Maybe the game already does this?

What I'd like to see is players who have few pitch types to choose from are predominantly relievers and those with more have a better shot at being starters.

I think tieing the chances of pitch outcomes to the actual pitches is a bit trickier, but maybe you still have overall stuff, movement and control ratings, but you also have those for each pitch type. Then the overall is a weighted average taking into consideration that the pitcher will probably want to throw his best pitches more often. The hard part is probably getting the best advice on when a certain pitch should be thrown in a certain situation taking into consideration what other pitches you have and that you don't want to throw the same thing in the same situation every time.

damonrusst · 05-01-2008, 03:47 AM

That was one cool thing about Mogul. It would have the pitches assigned appropriate to era and specific pitchers, like the eephus pitch, spitball and I think Randy Johnson actualliy had one named specifically just for himself. And they looked different in the pbp mode. Of course, you had a 50/50 chance of the rest of the game workign properly but this part was cool.

clamel · 05-01-2008, 02:56 PM

Clearly and eye-candy thing I´m sure, BUT one do hear from time and time again that a ceratin batter is a fastball-hitter,,, can´t lay off the slider,, always lay off the first pitch,,, first pitch hitter,, low-ball hitter and so on.

I guess managers and sportsannouncer have some clue of the pitches and batters beyond stats.

All things shouldn´t be based on official stats, I for one should love to see some sort of rating for Pinch-Hitters. Some batters just have a special eye for that situation. Clutch-hitter cool and veteran...

RchW · 05-01-2008, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonrusst

That was one cool thing about Mogul. It would have the pitches assigned appropriate to era and specific pitchers, like the eephus pitch, spitball and I think Randy Johnson actualliy had one named specifically just for himself. And they looked different in the pbp mode. Of course, you had a 50/50 chance of the rest of the game workign properly but this part was cool.

Quote:

Originally Posted by clamel

Clearly and eye-candy thing I´m sure, BUT one do hear from time and time again that a ceratin batter is a fastball-hitter,,, can´t lay off the slider,, always lay off the first pitch,,, first pitch hitter,, low-ball hitter and so on.

I guess managers and sportsannouncer have some clue of the pitches and batters beyond stats.

This is the dichotomy inherent to text sims. Do you want global accuracy ie league totals and Era appropriate stats, or do you want fine control down to each pitcher/batter confrontation. The global view suits me fine but I could support the infinite detail idea as long as it could be turned off, made optional, or put in the background as desired.

Quote:

All things shouldn´t be based on official stats, I for one should love to see some sort of rating for Pinch-Hitters. Some batters just have a special eye for that situation. Clutch-hitter cool and veteran...

It isn't. Scouting, coaching, player personality and morale all have some effect. So do hot and cold streaks. I've lost several playoff series on that part alone. Having no interest in scouting and coaching I turn them off. I like personality and morale as it introduces enough uncertainty to force your hand as a manager many times. However many others do not like it because they cannot quantify the effect on the game.

See this thread for a very interesting discussion. http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...-playoffs.html

Despite the title, the discussion was very much about the intangibles in the game.

CMH · 05-01-2008, 09:25 PM

Why not just have the pitches rated the same way pitchers are rated now? Control, Movement, and Stuff.

It could work well. A sinker could have a higher probablity of having a good movement rating since it's intention is to keep the ball pounded on the ground and apparently Movement affects homeruns. While a pitch like the Knuckleball would likely have a low stuff rating and control rating but possibly a high movement rating? Or however way it may work. Fastballs would be high on stuff and then from there it's all about the talent of the pitcher. Does he have good control? Does his fastball have good natural movement and therefore a high Movement rating?

I think stats would be even more accurate in a pitch-by-pitch mode.

clamel · 05-02-2008, 01:15 PM

For one thing the pitches that is given to the pitcher are in many ways problably wrong in any case.
Knuckeballers like Niekros and Hough doesn´t have the Knuckleball in their repetoare when I started my sim in 1987.
Indeed crazy, since then I don´t trust any other pitch-selection either.
Even if this is just eye-candy a knuckler is knuckler and it would be nice if one selected pitch-by-pitch in some games to see a textline like
"ooh what a knuckler, he couldn´t touch it" or whatever.
Gives some extra eye-candy indeed....

Hm Hough had fastball-change with speed 92-94 mph. Feels bad ....
What will Tim Wakefield have when he comes into the league.....

zekester91 · 05-02-2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clamel

Hm Hough had fastball-change with speed 92-94 mph. Feels bad ....
What will Tim Wakefield have when he comes into the league.....

I'm pretty sure that whatever pitches they have is random, I don't think the DB has what pitches they threw in real life in it, so OOTP just gives them what it feels it should due to how thier real life stats look.

Charlie Hough · 05-02-2008, 06:47 PM

Did someone say knuckleballers?

I not only feel that we need to move toward a way to incorporate accurate pitch selections, but I think that the game should factor in the potential career impact of pitch types. For example, pitchers with the knuckleball as their primary pitch selection should have a different aging algorithm than those who rely primarily on the fastball.

As far as rendering the pitch selections goes, I bought a great book last year that is an encyclopedia of pitch selections for thousands of MLB pitchers throughout history. It is based on news accounts, scouting reports, interviews, and biographies. This kind of information should somehow be added to a Lahman database or similar resource for importing in historical play.

zekester91 · 05-02-2008, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Did someone say knuckleballers?

I not only feel that we need to move toward a way to incorporate accurate pitch selections, but I think that the game should factor in the potential career impact of pitch types. For example, pitchers with the knuckleball as their primary pitch selection should have a different aging algorithm than those who rely primarily on the fastball.

As far as rendering the pitch selections goes, I bought a great book last year that is an encyclopedia of pitch selections for thousands of MLB pitchers throughout history. It is based on news accounts, scouting reports, interviews, and biographies. This kind of information should somehow be added to a Lahman database or similar resource for importing in historical play.

While we did somehow got the new version of Lahman's db early, and he has been known to post here, we have no control what goes into that Database. if baseball1.com has a form you should post over there or email him.

clamel · 05-03-2008, 04:05 PM

Playing with the Cubs in 87 and Rick Sutcliffe has a KNUCKLER as is top pitch.

HOW ABOUT THAT !!!!!!!!!!!!

SittingDuck · 05-03-2008, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie Hough

Did someone say knuckleballers?

I'm a newb here, so pardon my asking, but are you the man himself?

Well, while I can see type-pitch effectiveness as a strong aspect of a fictional league, I think it would totally blow any historical league to hell and back. And be impossible to harness.

You can't have Koufax throwing a knuckler or some lame offspeed and not have him with a killer fastball. So what do we do for ALL the historical pitchers? It's just not feasible, at least not to me. And then you have to design a system for pitch effectiveness, and see how different historical pitchers make out under that system...

(he said 'pitchers making out'....)

But in a fictional game you could roll the dice and whatever a pitcher produces as stats - who can argue that? There is no historical basis for evaluation. So it's easy to implement in a fictional environment, but basically impossible to implement in a historical environment and maintain credibility.

I believe this is why both PSBB and OOTP (and perhaps others) essentially came up with the pitching system abstration. It makes me sad, but I don't think this type of pitch-effectiveness system will ever see the light of day. I dream of it, but only so much.

japes · 05-10-2008, 09:26 AM

My question is not as much about the actual pitches but the pitcher model ie... Power pitcher vs ground ball pitcher. Do pitchers that are considered "ground ball pitchers" (sinker type pitchers) sim different than power pitchers as far as a GB pitcher on a bad defensive team gives up more hits and earned runs but the same pitcher on a team with better/ more ranging defenses looks like an all-star.

04-25-2008, 12:17 PM	#1
swaowner Bat Boy Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 10	Do pitches matter in any of the ootp games? Was wondering if the pitch selection actually mattered? Cant remember if Markus actually answered this question or not.

04-25-2008, 02:31 PM	#3
kingcharlesxii Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 2,730	I think knuckleball is the only one that matters. __________________ OTBA - Stockholm Royal Squirrels of Sweden OOTP Grand League Champion 2015

04-30-2008, 01:36 AM	#6
Base Stealer Minors (Double A) Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Italy Posts: 120	A word from Markus about velocity and pitches (knuckleball) influence would be great.... __________________ Endure. In endurance grow strong.

04-30-2008, 08:04 PM	#8
SittingDuck All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 1,834	I think it's basically impossible for historical leagues - they don't even get the pitches accurately assigned for pitchers there. It's not an OOTP thing - it's just that who has that info logged? You know it if you are a fan of a pitcher, but otherwise.... It's the same with PSBB and FPSBB - random assignment of pitch types to historical pitchers. But in the case of fictional players, IMO there should definitely be value to pitches and the ability to throw various pitches. I'd prefer to see the system overhauled - set it as a longterm goal. Nothing addressed pitching like FPSBB. Each pitch was rated, and each pitcher threw the various pitches at different speeds. It was just great. If OOTP could somehow assign values to the various pitches - a player's ability to throw a pitch with some level of skill, then the game would grow by leaps and bounds. But as it stands, it matters not - for the most part - that a pitcher throws this or that pitch. Mainly eye candy. And I am not for that at all in a baseball sim. Not at all. Last edited by SittingDuck; 04-30-2008 at 08:05 PM.

04-30-2008, 08:22 PM	#9
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 10,697	For historical leagues you could make it an option, but I wonder if you could tie the types of pitches they get to the ratings they receive. For instance, someone with great movement but no control would get a knuckleball. I don't know that aspect of the game well enough to say what should determine gives you a changeup, curveball, etc, but I'm sure many here do. And high velocity obviously should go along with a fastball, but I don't know if velocity is a randomly generated thing in itself. Maybe the game already does this? What I'd like to see is players who have few pitch types to choose from are predominantly relievers and those with more have a better shot at being starters. I think tieing the chances of pitch outcomes to the actual pitches is a bit trickier, but maybe you still have overall stuff, movement and control ratings, but you also have those for each pitch type. Then the overall is a weighted average taking into consideration that the pitcher will probably want to throw his best pitches more often. The hard part is probably getting the best advice on when a certain pitch should be thrown in a certain situation taking into consideration what other pitches you have and that you don't want to throw the same thing in the same situation every time. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project)

04-25-2008, 02:23 PM	#2
Kelric Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Greater Boston Area Posts: 3,992	Nope, pitch type does not matter. Velocity supposedly does, however. In theory, prospects with higher velocities are supposed to develop quicker/better than those with low velocities.

04-29-2008, 05:28 PM	#5
clamel All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Across the Pond Posts: 1,033	This is sad. Hopefully OOTP9 or 10 will start leaning on this pitch thing. Baseball Mogul have attention on this, with pitcher having each pitch rated and also whats really fun is that some batters have increase or decrease on certain pitches. Then one can select pitch-type and location in one-pitch mode. It will be hard to include but I think it should add an important edge to the play. The AI will now just "select" a pitch only so the in-game text can have something to say, but on some ocassion one expects ceratin pitches to get a batter out. However I´m very new to the game, but this is something I missed all back in the beginning when I tried out early versions. The old boardgames APBA and Strat-O-Matic had same problems. You just threw a dice and then looked at the result.

05-01-2008, 03:47 AM	#10
damonrusst Major Leagues Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 464	That was one cool thing about Mogul. It would have the pitches assigned appropriate to era and specific pitchers, like the eephus pitch, spitball and I think Randy Johnson actualliy had one named specifically just for himself. And they looked different in the pbp mode. Of course, you had a 50/50 chance of the rest of the game workign properly but this part was cool.

05-01-2008, 02:56 PM	#11
clamel All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Across the Pond Posts: 1,033	Clearly and eye-candy thing I´m sure, BUT one do hear from time and time again that a ceratin batter is a fastball-hitter,,, can´t lay off the slider,, always lay off the first pitch,,, first pitch hitter,, low-ball hitter and so on. I guess managers and sportsannouncer have some clue of the pitches and batters beyond stats. All things shouldn´t be based on official stats, I for one should love to see some sort of rating for Pinch-Hitters. Some batters just have a special eye for that situation. Clutch-hitter cool and veteran...

05-01-2008, 09:25 PM	#13
CMH Hall Of Famer Join Date: Feb 2002 Posts: 5,057	Why not just have the pitches rated the same way pitchers are rated now? Control, Movement, and Stuff. It could work well. A sinker could have a higher probablity of having a good movement rating since it's intention is to keep the ball pounded on the ground and apparently Movement affects homeruns. While a pitch like the Knuckleball would likely have a low stuff rating and control rating but possibly a high movement rating? Or however way it may work. Fastballs would be high on stuff and then from there it's all about the talent of the pitcher. Does he have good control? Does his fastball have good natural movement and therefore a high Movement rating? I think stats would be even more accurate in a pitch-by-pitch mode.

05-02-2008, 01:15 PM	#14
clamel All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Across the Pond Posts: 1,033	For one thing the pitches that is given to the pitcher are in many ways problably wrong in any case. Knuckeballers like Niekros and Hough doesn´t have the Knuckleball in their repetoare when I started my sim in 1987. Indeed crazy, since then I don´t trust any other pitch-selection either. Even if this is just eye-candy a knuckler is knuckler and it would be nice if one selected pitch-by-pitch in some games to see a textline like "ooh what a knuckler, he couldn´t touch it" or whatever. Gives some extra eye-candy indeed.... Hm Hough had fastball-change with speed 92-94 mph. Feels bad .... What will Tim Wakefield have when he comes into the league..... Last edited by clamel; 05-02-2008 at 01:18 PM.

05-02-2008, 06:47 PM	#16
Charlie Hough Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,625	Did someone say knuckleballers? I not only feel that we need to move toward a way to incorporate accurate pitch selections, but I think that the game should factor in the potential career impact of pitch types. For example, pitchers with the knuckleball as their primary pitch selection should have a different aging algorithm than those who rely primarily on the fastball. As far as rendering the pitch selections goes, I bought a great book last year that is an encyclopedia of pitch selections for thousands of MLB pitchers throughout history. It is based on news accounts, scouting reports, interviews, and biographies. This kind of information should somehow be added to a Lahman database or similar resource for importing in historical play.

05-03-2008, 04:05 PM	#18
clamel All Star Starter Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Across the Pond Posts: 1,033	Playing with the Cubs in 87 and Rick Sutcliffe has a KNUCKLER as is top pitch. HOW ABOUT THAT !!!!!!!!!!!!

05-10-2008, 09:26 AM	#20
japes Bat Boy Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 2	My question is not as much about the actual pitches but the pitcher model ie... Power pitcher vs ground ball pitcher. Do pitchers that are considered "ground ball pitchers" (sinker type pitchers) sim different than power pitchers as far as a GB pitcher on a bad defensive team gives up more hits and earned runs but the same pitcher on a team with better/ more ranging defenses looks like an all-star.