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Old 02-28-2006, 02:58 PM   #1
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My Universe

Thought I would post here about what I've done with my historical universe (sorry I don't have any fancy name for it yet) -- I started out roughly in 1880 and am now about ready to start 1906 -- 25 years of boxing history in about 9 months! This first post will describe my general approach and rules, etc., and I will follow up with one post for each of the 7 divisions up and running (all of the 8 "classic" ones except for flyweights which will start in '07 with the addition of Mr. Sid Smith).

My approach probably more closely mirrors that of mh with his LBA than anyone else but there are some differences as I am more interested in trying to keep it as historical as possible but also want to keep it moving so I am not going to be including too many boxers that were like 6-20 IRL (in real life). For each real life fighter, I try to start them in their given start year. (There have been a couple of exceptions, usually when I downloaded the fighter at a point where my uni is a few years later than when he actually started but I wanted to put him there anyway.) My active boxers are divided into two groups: "Men" for the real-life boxers and "Trial Horse" for the fictional Tomato Can fighters from Cornerwork. (Downloaded the Tomato Cans but in my uni I use the much more polite term "Trial Horse") I generally use the TCs as necessary to develop other fighters and don't really track their careers as much. I create TCs based largely on the number of new real-life boxers due to start in a particular year, also trying to match them geographically (i.e., if Bill Lang is starting up in Australia I will start up an Australian TC the same year) so the real-life guys have the chance to build up a record.

I do the career adjustments manually, moving folks to pre-prime after 5 bouts. Real-life boxers go to prime after 20, but I set the TCs to prime after 15. I then use the 100 pts allocation for aging real-life fighters once they hit prime (the method has been posted here before, sorry don't have the link right now) but use my own judgment about when to age and retire the TCs (basically if they haven't had a bout for a year, they are gone). I find this doesn't take too long as I use the TB 2 feature that sorts by number of bouts and then I cross-check the career stage column to make sure everyone is where they should be, doing it once for the "Men" and again for the "Trial Horse" group in each active division after each set of fight cards is complete. I usually will just rename and reset stats for a retired tomato can so he comes back in a different incarnation, as I find it's alot easier than downloading a new one (remnant of having them blanked out by the no rating record bug) but I've found it's created problems with the new patch as then I have to manually adjust their PPs to 200 so it doesn't mess up the ratings for the real-life boxers.

Aging for the real-life boxers follows the methodology posted here a long time ago, losing more pts for TKO loss, then KO loss, etc. On Jan. 1 of the year a fighter hits age 38 or his real-life retirement year he goes to Post-Prime and his pts drop to 30. When the pts reach 10, he goes to "end" and 0, adios baby. This causes some fighters to hang around longer than I'd like but so far it hasn't been a big enough problem for me to make changes.

I generally try to run a series of fight cards of 6 or more (I run single fights at the same venue for shorter bouts and then the "fight card" for the top 4 or 6 bouts), using draw power totals with any title bouts receiving top billing. There were alot fewer cards in the early years, but right now I am doing about 4-5 cards per simulated month. I have only one World title belt, the WBA, and a bunch of subsidiary belts like NABF, USBA, EBU, CBU (British Commonwealth) and GBU -- I expect to add more as the fighter nationalities justify it. (So far TCs have held some of these lesser titles but I don't think one has ever held the WBA belt.) All WBA title bouts are 15 rounds, lesser titles are all 12, anything else is 10 or less depending on skill and experience of the combatants.

Timing -- I find if I concentrate at it these days I do a set of one months fight cards (ususally four or five) in a day--that gets me about two years done in a month. If the bout is 2 TCs I auto-sim it (fast forward), often leaving the computer to do something else. If at least one is a real-life fighter, I take over the corner and watch the bouts. I prefer to do my own match-making and don't use complicated spreadsheets. I do use 2D10 die rolls to determine when each real-life boxer will fight again -- same method described here, 1-40 chance for next month if beginner or pre-prime, 1-25 if prime or later, add 10 for each additional month (takes longer to come back based on cuts, TKO loss, multiple KDs, KO loss, etc., all this tracks the methodology posted here a long time ago), this means that generally not all the top contenders will be available for a bout in any given month. I do not do the die rolls for the TCs, finding that gives me the flexibility to add them into bouts at will. (I think you can tell from this that it is the matchmaking and the cornerwork aspects of the game that I find most intriguing.)

I have my game set to 10 bouts minimum for ratings, generally I want to see at least 10 bouts and usually more before I set up a fighter for even one of the lesser titles. Really great fighters -- like I'm looking at Stanley Ketchel right now -- get a title shot for like USBA after just 10-11 fights. Most of the time they have to wait longer and my guess is with more fighters in a division the wait to a title shot for even really good boxers will get longer, like IRL, so it's a function of how many guys in the division.

next post will chronicle the travails of the early years of the HW division ... (be happy to address any questions people have)
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Old 02-28-2006, 05:41 PM   #2
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Looks great - I'll be checking in -
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Old 02-28-2006, 07:38 PM   #3
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Always good to see how my universe fighters fare in other historical uni's. Besides I get a little jealous when I read about current guys!!!! I'll be watching.
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Old 03-01-2006, 02:57 PM   #4
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Part I-Heavyweight Division First 25 Years

This is part 1 of 7 devoted to the first quarter-century in each of the active divisions. Since it covers the heavyweights, it will be the longest as this division has had by far the most action (number of title bouts, number of boxers and a surprisingly large number of World Title Holders).

History of WBA World Title Lineage 1880-1905

84 title bouts
15 different champions
title changed hands 22 times
here's the history (number of successful defenses in parens)

1880-1882 Tommy Chandler (3)
1882 John L Sullivan (1)
1882 George Old Chocolate Godfrey (0)
1882-1883 John L Sullivan (2)
1883-1884 Joe Coburn (0)
1884-1888 Peter Jackson (12)
1888 John L Sullivan (0)
1888 Jimmy Elliot (0)
1888 Tommy Chandler (0)
1888-1889 John C Heehan (4)
1889-1890 Jake Knifton (0)
1890 Bob Fitzsimmons (0)
1890-1891 John L Sullivan (0)
1891 George Old Chocolate Godfrey (0)
1891 Peter Jackson (1)
1891-1892 Peter Courtney (0)
1892-1896 James Corbett (9)
1896-1897 Dick Matthews (1)
1897-1899 Peter Jackson (7)
1899-1901 James Corbett (9)
1901-1902 Bob Armstrong (0)
1902-1905 James Jeffries (10)
1905- Jack Johnson (2)

Alot of turmoil in the divison's early years, as only Jackson and Corbett put together long streaks at the top. More recently, Jeffries and Johnson have come to the fore, and Jack seems poised for a long run. (Side-note here: just finished reading "Unforgivable Blackness," a biography of Johnson that is out in paperback, and I recommend it -- many fighters from this era are in the book) All those who were champions IRL made it to the top except for Burns and Hart, who are still active. In fact, Burns will be Jack's first title defense in 1906 set where -- you guessed it -- Sydney, Australia.


Champion: Jack Johnson 49-3-2 (40)
1. James Jeffries 35-4-2 (30)
2. Sam Langford 17-1 (14)
3. Bob Armstrong 31-14-1 (25)
4. Tommy Burns 23-3 (18)
5. Sam McVey 16-1 (13)
6. Tom Sharkey 39-12-2 (36)
7. Mike Schreck 16-6 (13)
8. Marvin Hart 22-10 (13)
9. Rafe Jenkins* 17-17-3 (4)
10. Gus Ruhlin 23-16-1 (18)

Note: Fighters designated with an asterisk are fictional tomato cans.

All the above fighters are still in their "Prime" career mode except for Sharkey who is "Post-Prime" and Langford and McVey who will hit prime with their 20th bouts. Here are the lesser title holders:

NABF Champion: Armstrong (USA)
USBA Champion: McVey (USA)
CBU Champion: Langford (Canada)
GBU Champion: Jack Palmer (UK) 13-6-1 (10) ranked 15th

No EBU champion as yet -- will probably wait until Carpentier moves up to HW.

Finally, here is a list of the career records of those HWs I have retired (listed in chronological order of time of retirement). There are 20 of them; included is the career record and highest title attained. Note: You will not see Coburn, Elliot and Heehan on this list because I copied them from someone else's universe where they has already been active with an exisitng record -- the fighters listed here are ones I observed and followed from day one of their careers.

Joe Hess (USA) 1873-1889 28-27-4 (5) No Titles
Tommy Chandler (USA) 1878-1892 39-13-1 (32) WBA Champ
Herbert Slade (Aus) 1881-1892 27-18 (18) CBU Champ
Joe Lannon (Canada) 1884-1892 13-17-3 (4) No Titles
Jake Knifton (UK) 1879-1893 53-17 (43) WBA Champ
Charley Mitchell (UK) 1877-1893 32-26-2 (7) CBU, GBU Champ
George Rooke (USA) 1878-1893 32-23-1 (23) USBA Champ
Paddy Ryan (USA) 1881-1893 26-20-2 (22) NABF, USBA Champ
George Godfrey (Canada) 1879-1895 49-18-1 (34) WBA Champ
Jake Kilrain (USA) 1879-1897 28-32-3 (9) No Titles
Frank Slavin (Aus) 1882-1897 27-27 (22) No Titles
John L Sullivan (USA) 1879-1897 51-19-1 (40) WBA Champ
Dominic McCaffrey (USA) 1881-1898 46-24-3 (25) NABF, USBA Champ
Dick Matthews (USA) 1882-1899 45-19-2 (34) WBA Champ
Denver Ed Smith (UK) 1884-1899 27-23-2 (15) GBU Champ
Peter Courtney (USA) 1884-1901 40-21 (28) WBA Champ
Bob Fitzsimmons (UK) 1883-1901 58-14-2 (41) WBA Champ also LH Champ
Peter Maher (IRL) 1888-1902 26-27-1 (23) No Titles
Peter Jackson (Aus) 1882-1902 68-14-3 (54) WBA Champ
Joe Goddard (Aus) 1889-1903 36-16-3 (22) CBU Champ

In the active database, both Corbett and Joe Choynski are approaching retirement -- Sailor Jack still has a bit of a ways to go.

Last edited by JCWeb; 03-01-2006 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 03-02-2006, 03:36 PM   #5
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Part II-Light Heavyweights Through 1905

This report will follow the same format as for the Heavyweights but of course it will be alot shorter.

1885-1905 LH Division Capsule History
48 World title bouts
title changed hands 10 times
8 different champions

Title Lineage (successful defenses in parens):

1885-1886 Bob Fitzsimmons (3)
(Note: moved Fitz up to HW after being unbeaten (18-0) vs LHs through 1886.)
1886-1890 Joe Butler (7)
1890-1900 Joe Choynski (18)
1900-1903 Phila Jack O'Brien (5)
1903- George Gardner (0)
1903-1904 Charlie Haghey (2)
1904- Phila Jack O'Brien (0)
1904- Goerge Gardner (0)
1904-1905 John Wille (2)
1905- Jack Root (0)
1905- Phila Jack O'Brien (0)

Well, I didn't wait around until early 1900s to get the division going and of course there was a paucity of real contenders until then, which explains why Butler and Choynski lasted so long. Choynski moved up to HW shortly after losing the title in 1900 to O'Brien. A bit surprised to see Haghey and Wille make it to the top before Root. So far all who held the belt IRL have done so in my universe.

Current Rankings (Jan 1906):

WBA Champ Phila Jack O'Brien 36-13-1 (19)
1. George Gardner 35-5-1 (24)
2. Jeremy McWatt* 20-15-2 (3)
3. John Wille 20-4-1 (16)
4. Leo Houck 15-2 (7)
5. Jack Root 29-8 (22)
6. Clifford Marvine* 18-15-2 (3)
7. Charlie Haghey 16-10-2 (14)
8. Jack Sullivan 19-10 (12)
9. Fred Cooley 14-1 (9)
10. Chuck Carrick* 13-13-1 (27)

Title Holders:
NABF -- Wille (USA)
USBA -- Houck (USA)
CBU, GBU -- McWatt (UK)

More trial horses in top 10 because of lack of real-life fighters in this division. Only other RL boxer active now is Billy Stift (now in post-prime), who is ranked just outside of top ten. All with 20 or more bouts listed are in Prime, those with less than 20 are Pre-Prime.

Retired LHs so far (it's a short list):

Fitzsimmons -- see HW report
Joe Butler (USA) 1883-1902 56-20 (35) WBA Champ
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Old 03-03-2006, 02:45 PM   #6
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Part III - Middleweights Through 1905

History of Middleweight Division

58 World Title Bouts so far
Title Changed Hands 12 Times
7 Different Champions

Title Lineage (successful defenses in parens):

1884- NP Jack Dempsey (0)
1884-1885 George LaBlanche (0)
1885- Mike Donovan (0)
1885- George LaBlanche (1)
1885-1897 NP Jack Dempsey (28)
1897-1898 Tommy Ryan (2)
1898-1899 Charles Kid McCoy (1)
1899-1900 Tommy Ryan (3)
1900-1904 Charles Kid McCoy (9)
1904- Tommy Ryan (0)
1904- Frank Craig (0)
1904-1905 Cyclone Johnny Thompson (0)
1905- Tommy Ryan (1)

After an unsettled start in the early years with the title going back and forth between LaBlanche, Donovan and Dempsey, the Nonpareil settled into a very impressive title run lasting 12 years where he ran his record up to a gaudy 60-2-1 (lost only to LaBlanche and LH Billy Stift). Then former WW champ Tommy Ryan took the title, and since then Ryan and Kid McCoy have proved to be the cream of the crop. Craig and Thompson snuck in there, and now the Italians (Hugo Kelly and Kid Locke) are bidding to take the title to Europe.

Top Ten Ratings and Records as of Jan 1906:

WBA Champ Tommy Ryan (USA) 69-7 (57)
1. Hugo Kelly 14-3 (9)
2. Charles Kid McCoy 50-9 (44)
3. Cyclone Johnny Thompson 15-3 (12)
4. Kid Carter 24-8-1 (19)
5. Kid Locke 16-4-1 (2)
6. Frank Craig 20-6 (14)
7. Stanley Ketchel 12-0 (12)
8. Will Carney* 10-5-1 (1)
9. Frank Fields 14-6-2 (10)
10. Paddy Levin 12-2 (8)

Lesser Titles:

NABF - McCoy (USA)
USBA - Ketchel (USA)
CBU - *Carney (CAN)
GBU - Gary Overly (UK)* 16-14-3 (6) ranked 11th

Ketchel's rise to prominence has been meteroric, taking the USBA crown in his 11th bout--he likely will be gunning for a World title shot in the next year or so. Look for an inaugural EBU title bout with 2 Italians and one Irish boxer (Levin) in the Top Ten. Ryan is now in Post-Prime, but has sufficient career points left to set new marks for most bouts, wins and KOs. Look for new prospects Eddie McGoorty and Billy Papke to move up the ranks quickly. Kelly, Thompson, Ketchel, Levin still at pre-Prime until they hit 20 bouts.

Retired MW Boxers

Mike Donovan (USA) 1880-1981 49-5 (24) WBA Champ
George LaBlanche (CAN) 1882-1896 41-17-1 (23) WBA Champ
NP Jack Dempsey (IRL) 1882-1899 63-6-1 (55) WBA Champ
Johnny Reagan (USA) 1887-1900 40-12 (32) NABF, USBA Champ

correction from earlier posts: HW Gus Ruhlin and LH Jack Root now post-prime as 1906 was their retirement years IRL
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Old 03-06-2006, 03:13 AM   #7
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Part !V-Welterweights Through 1905

The Welterweight division has had alot of action in the early years, as indicated by the following stats:

53 World Title Bouts
Title Changed Hands 20 Times
11 different Title Holders

Title Lineage (number of successful defenses in parens):

1886 - 1887 Paddy Duffy (1)
1887 - 1889 William McMillan (2)
1889 - Paddy Duffy (0)
1889 - 1890 Tommy Ryan (2)
1890 - Tom Meadows (0)
1890 - 1892 Tommy Ryan (3)
1892 - 1893 Mysterious Billy Smith (1)
1893 - 1896 Tommy Ryan (9) - Ryan vacated Title to move up to MW
1897 - Mysterious Billy Smith (1)
1897 - 1898 Joe Walcott (2)
1898 - 1899 Matty Matthews (0)
1899 - 1900 Young Peter Jackson (1)
1900 - Mysterious Billy Smith (0)
1900 - 1901 Joe Walcott (1)
1901 - 1902 Young Peter Jackson (3)
1902 - Rube Ferns (0)
1902 - 1903 Young Peter Jackson (2)
1903 - Joe Walcott (0)
1903 - 1904 Jimmy Gardner (2)
1904 - 1905 Joe Walcott (2)
1905 - Dixie Kid (1)

Just about everyone who held the WW title IRL took the belt at one time or another, albeit briefly. Ryan compiled a 40-3 mark before outgrowing the division and moving up to successfully challenge for the Middleweight crown. Walcott's chances for an impressive run of successful defenses were hurt by a propensity for fouling, costing him the title on two occasions (versus Matthews in 1898 and Gardner in 1903). Joe Gans, long-time Lightweight champ, has moved up to add even more competition to the division in 1906.

Jan 1906 Top Ten Rankings

WBA Champ Dixie Kid (USA) 23-4-1 (13)
1. Mysterious Billy Smith 46-13 (35)
2. Johnny Summers 16-3-1 (10)
3. Joe Walcott 50-14-2 (20)
4. Young Joseph 16-1 (7)
5. Honey Mellody 19-5 (7)
6. Jimmy Gardner 17-3-1 (10)
7. Willie Lewis 19-6 (15)
8. Young Peter Jackson 33-6-2 (25)
9. Mike Sullivan 20-6 (12)
10. Battling Bill Hurley 17-4 (8)

Lesser Titles
NABF and CBU: Smith (CAN)
GBU: Summers (UK)
USBA: Rube Ferns (USA) 31-13 (25) currently ranked 12th

Everyone with at least 20 bouts in the Top Ten is still in Prime career stage. So far there have been four retirements:

Paddy Duffy (USA) 1884-1897 43-12 (25) WBA Champ
Tom Meadows (AUS) 1886-1899 34-19 (25) WBA Champ
Charley White (USA) 1886-1899 28-19 (18) No Titles
William McMillan (UK) 1885-1901 45-11 (30) WBA Champ
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Old 03-08-2006, 05:32 PM   #8
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Part 5 of 7- Lightweights Through 1905

Lightweight Division -- The First Quarter-Century

48 Title Bouts
6 Times Changed Hands
5 Different Champions

WBA Title Lineage (number of successful defenses in parens)

1888 - 1897 Jack McAuliffe (23)
1897 - Joe Gans (0)
1897 - 1898 Frank Erne (0)
1898 - George Lavigne (0)
1898 - 1905 Joe Gans (19) - vacated title to compete as WW
1905 - Jack Blackburn (0)

A lot more stability than in any other division thus far, mainly due to the stellar records of McAuliffe and Gans. McAuliffe ran his record to a perfect 45-0 before moving up to WW and losing a non-title clash with Paddy Duffy; his loss to Gans in '97 was only his second defeat. Gans had only three losses while campaigning as a LW, thus far he has found it tougher after moving up (not rated as WW, am using his LW numbers with the appropriate penalty). So far everyone who has held the title IRL managed to take the belt, albeit very briefly in the cases of Erne and Lavigne. Blackburn beat Jewey Cooke for the vacant title, although others in the Division (like Battling Nelson, for one) are hankering for a shot at the crown now that Gans is not around to defend it.

Jan 1906 Rankings
WBA Champ: Jack Blackburn (USA) 19-3-1 (10)
1. Jewey Cooke 43-8-1 (28)
2. Battling Nelson 37-6 (28)
3. Joe Gans 52-5 (34)
4. Frank Erne 36-15-3 (26)
5. Arthur Douglas 17-5-1 (9)
6. Kid Fredericks 18-9-1 (14)
7. Tim Callahan 37-15-3 (10)
8. Matty Baldwin 15-3 (12)
9. Kid McPartland 12-18-1 (11)
10. Chicago Dave Barry 18-7-1 (12)

Lesser Titles
NABF: Cooke (USA)
USBA: Barry (USA)
CBU: Mike Ward (Canada) 20-5-1 (14) ranked 14
GBU: Art Singletary (UK)* 13-11-4 (2) ranked 13

Everyone in Top Ten with 20 fights in is at Prime except for McPartland who is set to retire after one bout in '06. Ward, who was killed in the ring in 1906, is being set to post-prime at the start of the year. A bit surprised at how well Cooke has fared in a division that is rapidly filling up with some name opponents.

Retired LW Boxers to date (only two, both champions):

Jack McAuliffe (IRL) 1884-1902 57-7-1 (49) WBA Champ
George Lavigne (USA) 1886-1904 46-25-3 (34) WBA Champ

Once a Division with just a few active boxers, the Lightweight Division now boasts around 30 or so contenders so look for the action to pick up.

Last edited by JCWeb; 03-08-2006 at 05:35 PM.
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Old 03-08-2006, 07:42 PM   #9
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Some good stuff here. Man NP Jack Dempsey was run that crap for awhile there. It's amazing how different a fighters career can turn out in two different universes, MH2365's Dempsey has been horrible in title fights while yours looked near unbeatable.
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Old 03-08-2006, 08:03 PM   #10
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Definitely interesting - You've seen some da*m good champions - I'll be checking in to see how it continues -
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Old 03-11-2006, 03:09 PM   #11
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Part 6 of 7 - Featherweights Through 1905

To the last two posters -- Thanks for the interest shown, and frankly one of the reasons NP Dempsey's record seems so good is that the other MWs in my database during that era were fairly weak by comparision (LaBlanche, Donovan and Reagan) until the arrival of McCoy and Ryan who moved up from WW. I did not have Fitz at MW or guys like Creedon which may have caused a different result. This makes a great segway to one division (other than the HWs of course) where there has been a plethora of quality fighters over the first 25 years -- the Featherweight Division. Here are the basics:

58 World Title Bouts
26 times title changed hands
18 different champions

Title Lineage (number of successful defenses in parens):

1886 - 1887 Torpedo Billy Murphy (2)
1887 - 1889 Fred Johnson (1)
1889 - Abe Willis (0)
1889 - 1892 Young Griffo (7)
1892 - 1893 Solly Smith (1)
1893 - Jack Skelly (2)
1893 - 1894 Frank Murphy (0)
1894 - Johnny Griffin (0)
1894 - 1895 Jack Skelly (1)
1895 - 1896 Young Griffo (4)
1896 - 1897 Ben Jordan (0)
1897 - George Dixon (0)
1897 - 1898 Young Griffo (0)
1898 - Dave Sullivan (0)
1898 - Solly Smith (0)
1898 - 1899 George Dixon (0)
1899 - Harry Lyons (0)
1899 - 1900 Ben Jordan (1)
1900 - Dave Sullivan (0)
1900 - Harry Lyons (0)
1900 - 1901 Young Corbett (2)
1901 - Oscar Gardner (1)
1901 - 1902 Aurelio Herrera (0)
1902 - Brooklyn Tommy Sullivan (0)
1902 - 1903 Young Griffo (2)
1903 - 1905 Abe Attell (5)
1905 - Jem Driscoll (2)

Most interesting was the 1896-1899 time period where in eight consecutive title bouts, the title changed hands each time! The only thing closest to a dominant fighter here is Young Griffo, who has held the World title belt on four different occasions and made more successful defenses than anyone. He started off with 31 in a row before a surprise TKO loss to Solly Smith. More recently, Abe Attell had a similar career path, going 27-0 until losing the title via 15-round decision to Jem Driscoll in London. Perhaps hometown refereeing had something to do with it, and Attell is hoping for a rematch. Since just about every Tom Dick and the ever-popular Aurelio have held the title bout, the and just about only real-like FW champ or title claimant not represented here is Jimmy Britt, who started off as a LW in my database. (See discussion of current FW contender Terry McGovern below).

Jan 1906 Top Ten Ratings
Champ: Jem Driscoll (UK) 25-1 (21)
1. Abe Attell 28-1 (17)
2. Harry Lyons 41-8-1 (23)
3. Terry McGovern 26-10-1 (23)
4. Brooklyn Tommy Sullivan 26-9-1 (16)
5. Young Griffo 68-8-3 (29)
6. Young Corbett 24-10-4 (18)
7. Aurelio Herrera 23-9-1 (22)
8. Eddie Santry 25-16-1 (15)
9. Benny Soloman 28-9 (24)
10. Joe Bernstein 26-16-1 (13)

Lesser Titles
NABF: Lyons (USA)
USBA: BT Sullivan (USA)
CBU: Griffo (AUS)
GBU: kind of dormant, since Driscoll is champ and Jordan only UK fighter left in database.

All the top 10 guys are in Prime of their careers, except of course for Griffo, who has been around so long I am going to think about renaming him "Old Griffo." One fighter I have been disappointed in so far is McGovern, who has yet to rise to the occasion and claim a even a lesser NABF or USBA title here after failing to take the WBA crown in the lower BW ranks, but "Terrible Terry" still has a few good years left to make his mark in the FW class. We'll see if he can deliver on that promise.

Retired FW Boxers (5 so far, look for more in the coming years with guys like Smith, Griffo and Dixon on the verge of retirement):

Torpedo Billy Murphy (NZL) 1882-1899 36-18-2 (28) WBA Champ
Abe Willis (AUS) 1885-1899 28-23 (16) WBA Champ
Johnny Griffin (USA) 1887-1901 37-17-2 (29) WBA Champ
Frank Murphy (USA) 1885-1903 43-20-2 (27) WBA Champ
Jack Skelly (USA) 1888-1903 37-21-2 (19) WBA Champ

Next post will conclude the historical retrospective with a look at the Bantam division and then I will follow with an update on the 1906 action which is currently on-going.
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Old 03-11-2006, 03:17 PM   #12
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enjoying this JC keep it up
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Old 03-11-2006, 08:52 PM   #13
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Keep up the good work JC. Been interesting so far.
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Old 03-11-2006, 09:07 PM   #14
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I echo what the others say, this is very good.
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Old 03-12-2006, 08:41 PM   #15
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Part 7 of 7 -- Bantamweights Through 1905

Thanks for the encouraging comments. Now on to the final installment covering the first 25 years for the BW Division.

51 World Title Bouts
title changed hands 5 times
6 different champs

Title Lineage (number successful defenses in parens):

1888 - 1889 Johnny Murphy (1)
1889 - 1892 George Dixon (7)
1892 - 1895 Nunc Wallace (7)
1895 - 1897 Cal McCarthy (3)
1897 - 1901 Jimmy Barry (14)
1901 - Harry Harris (13)

A pretty short list with a much more "orderly" transition of title holders than seen in other divisions (i.e. HW and FW, for example). This actually looks more like what you might see in a boxing history book for some of these divisions! Dixon, as IRL, moved up to FW shortly after losing the title to Wallace in 1892. McCarthy also dabbled in the FW division but mostly I kept him as a BW. Murphy, Wallace and McCarthy did not hold the BW crown IRL whereas the other three did. Several BW contenders who were title-holders/or claimants IRL who did not claim the belt in my uni included Tommy Kelly, Chappie Moran, Terry McGovern (lost in 4 title shots, 2 each to Barry and Harris), Brits Pedlar Palmer and Billy Plimmer and three active boxers (Bowker, Neil and Forbes) who still have a chance once the current champ, Harris, starts to age in 1907. (Hughey Boyle, an early title claimant, was not in my DB.) One highlight here has been the rivalry between Barry and Harris, who met only once IRL (1899, the final bout of Barry's undefeated career) and going into 1906 it stands at two wins apiece and one draw in the five 15-round title bouts, with all five going the distance.

Jan 1906 Top Ten Ratings
WBA Champ: Harry Harris (USA) 37-14-1 (24)
1. Jimmy Barry 52-2-2 (38)
2. Al Delmont 15-3 (9)
3. Phil McGovern 21-6-1 (7)
4. Harry Forbes 25-13-1 (10)
5. Biz Mackey 17-3-1 (7)
6. Owen Moran 20-3 (12)
7. Joe Bowker 18-7-1 (11)
8. Hugh McGovern 15-5-1 (8)
9. Kid Beebe 15-10-1 (6)
10. Tommy Feltz 18-9-1 (12)

Lesser Titles:
NABF: Barry (USA)
USBA: P McGovern (USA)
CBU: Moran (UK)
GBU: Bowker (UK)
EBU: Thomas Pedlar Palmer (UK) 29-22-3 (19) ranked 12th

Barry at Post-Prime, Delmont at Pre-Prime for two more bouts, others are at Prime. It would be ironic if one of the "other" McGoverns came away with the Title when their Hall Of Fame counterpart "Terrible Terry" could not. Barry's situation presents a stern test of my aging system. He has managed to hang on now for almost 7 years past his real life retirement year of 1899. Right now I plan to make no adjustments, but if the database becomes clogged with too many older boxers I may have to re-think it. (I do have a rule that boxers will a losing record are subject to retirement roles, but so far that has only come into play once as most have padded their records with so many wins versus TCs early on to prevent this.)

Retired List (7 so far, Casper Leon to be added and Barry will be there some time...)

Chappie Moran (UK) 1889-1897 22-16 (10) No Titles
Tommy Kelly (USA) 1888-1899 28-14-2 (22) USBA Champ
Cal McCarthy (USA) 1886-1899 33-15-1 (29) WBA Champ
Johnny Murphy (USA) 1885-1901 39-16-3 (30) WBA Champ
Walter Croot (UK) 1887-1901 39-18-1 (28) EBU and CBU Champ
Nunc Wallace (UK) 1885-1904 55-14-5 (34) WBA Champ
Billy Plimmer (UK) 1889-1904 35-18-3 (25) CBU, GBU Champ

This concludes the historical retrospective of the first 25 years of action. Next report will cover the year 1906, which I am a couple of days away from wrapping up.

Last edited by JCWeb; 03-12-2006 at 08:46 PM.
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:51 AM   #16
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1906 - Heavyweights

(guess I will follow the same format, one post for each division, rather than one long post).

WBA Champ is still Jack Johnson, who ran his record to 53-3-2 (43) with four successful title defenses:
UD15 Tommy Burns
TKO 8 Jack Palmer
TKO 10 James Jeffries (rematch of '05 bout, this time Jeff didn't last as long)
TKO 6 Sam McVey

NABF: McVey wrested the crown from Bob Armstrong (UD 12) and defended versus Al Kaufmann (UD 12).

USBA: James Jeffries won the crown vacated by McVey with a KO2 over Mike Schreck and then blasted out wins over Ruhlin (TKO 1) and Kaufmann (TKO 7) to show he is still dangerous.

CBU: Langford defended twice, versus Moir (TKO 7) and Palmer (KO 1).

GBU: Palmer retained title versus TC Ray Farquahr (TKO 7).

Top Ten:
top five still unchanged: Jeffries, Langford, Armstrong, Burns and McVey in that order (Armstrong stays up despite loss of NABF title to McVey with a surprise KO 2 over Langford in non-title bout).
#6 is Joe Jeannette at 14-0 (12) new to top ten
#7 John "Klondyke" Haines 21-11-3 (11) moves up with three wins over Hart, Sharkey and Fireman Jim Flynn
#8 Al Kaufmann 15-2 (10) Kaufmann ended Gentlemen Jim Corbett's career
#9 Mike Schreck (down 2 spots)
#10 Marvin Hart (down 2 spots, finished year with TD4 with Burns in reenactment of their real-life 1905 title encounter)

Everyone in Top Ten in Prime Career Stage except up-and-comers Jeannette and Kaufmann who are at Pre-Prime. Aging Tom Sharkey and Gus Ruhlin fell out of Top 10, as did trial horse Rafe Jenkins.

Ex-Champ James Corbett was the only retirement, his career stats:
1886-1906 57-13-5 (24) WBA Champ

looking ahead to 1907, three new boxers will be added (PO Curran of Ireland, William Iron Hague from the UK, and American Jim Stewart). Langford will be angling for a title shot versus Johnson. Joe Jeannette could also be making some noise. In a few years, look for an influx "Great White Hype" heavyweights like Arthur Pelkey, Luther McCarty, Frank Moran, Gunboat Smith, and eventually, Jess Willard.
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Old 03-14-2006, 10:54 AM   #17
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good stuff as always
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Old 03-14-2006, 01:04 PM   #18
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1906-Light Heavyweights

Thanks, MH. A lot less to report here, however ...

WBA Title: Phila Jack O'Brien defended three times, running his record up to 40-3-1 (21) by beating Gardner (UD 15, Jack is now 3-1 versus George in title bouts), Houck (UD15) and Stift (TKO 7). He also racked up a win over upstart MW Stanley Ketchel who in a rather bold move moved up in weight to take on the LH champ in a 10-round non-title bout while still in Pre-Prime. O'Brien has now won 9 in a row and may be moving up himself to try his luck against the HWs.

NABF: John Wille defended three times, versus Houck (D12), Stift (KO3) and the aging Jack Root (UD 12). Perhaps a rematch with Houck is in the offing.

USBA: Leo Houck hit the Prime stage and defended versus Fred Cooley (KO 3), TC Eric Comption (TKO 2) and Root (UD 12).

CBU and GBU champ tomato can Jeremy McWatt defended both titles.

Top 10: Gardner is still #1 rated contender, followed by Wille at #2 (up 1), Houck at #3 (up 1), McWatt drops to #4, Root stays at #5, Jack (Twin) Sullivan moves up 2 to #6 (looking for a title shot in 1906), Charlie Haghey still #7 despite a win over Sullivan in Aug., TCs Marvine and Carrick are #8 and #9 respectively and Billy Stift, despite approaching the tail end of his career, moved back into the top 10 at #10, record of 37-19 (28). Fred Cooley, who suffered three successive losses and is now at 14-4 (9), drops out of the Top 10.

All of top 10 at Prime except for Root (post-prime) and Stift (end). The division is likely to remain fairly stagnant until some new talent arrives in 1908, but there's a possibility that Kid McCoy may move up from the MW ranks to shake things up a bit.
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Old 03-14-2006, 06:04 PM   #19
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WBA Title changed hands 3 (!) times in 4 bouts:

Kid Locke upset Tommy Ryan (SD 15) to claim title, first one for Italy in my game, then defended versus Kid Carter (TKO 10), then Charles Kid McCoy beat Locke (WDQ 14) to win the title for the third time but his reign was short-lived as Ryan regained the title with a fourth round KO. The win meant Ryan has now won the MW title five times and he evened his lifetime mark with McCoy to 3-3 in World title clashes. Ryan's record going into 1907 stands at 71-8 (59) and in 1907 he will be going for his record 60th KO win.

NABF: McCoy defended once (TKO4 over Frank Fields) and then vacated the crown. Frank Klaus took out Cyclone Thompson in 4 to claim the vacant title.

USBA: Ketchel continued to dominate, with 4 straight stoppage wins, all in four rounds or less: Thompson (TKO 1), Craig (TKO 4), Klaus (KO 3) and Carter (KO 1). The only blemish in a stellar start to his career (15-1 now, all 15 wins by KO) was the loss to O'Brien.

EBU: A new title was on the line and it was claimed by Hugo Kelly with a TKO win over TC Gary Overly (the GBU champ). Kelly promptly lost it to Paddy Levin (UD 12) who defended twice versus Overly (KO 1) and Kelly (MD 12). A bit surprised to see Kelly thus far unable to match the success of his countryman, Kid Locke, whom he defeated earlier in their careers.

CBU: Changed hands from one TC to another -- now held by Neil Rowe (AUS). GBU belt defended by TC Overly (UK).

Top Ten
Ryan is back as champion, Locke moves up 4 spots to #1, Levin who went 4-0 for the year is up from #10 to #2; McCoy unchanged at #3 (now contemplating a move to LH, as the alternative of a bout with the talented youngster, Ketchel, seems a very unpalatable proposition for the aging vet); Ketchel up 3 to #4; Craig up 1 to #5; Kelly down 5 to #6; Carter down 3 to #7; Rowe (TC) enters at #8; Fields unchanged at #9; Klaus new addition at #10. Thompson (1-3 for the year) drops out as does Carney, the TC who lost the CBU title to Rowe.

No retirements; all Top 10 at Prime except for Ryan and McCoy who are at Post-Prime; Levin, Ketchel and Klaus are still at Pre-Prime.

What to expect for 1907? Continuing progress for the "Young Guns" of the division, not just Ketchel and Klaus who are already ranked, but hot prospects like Eddie McGoorty who is already 9-0, Sailor Burke (11-0) and Billy Papke (5-0). Two US boxers, Jack Fitzgerald and Billy Kramer, are set to start their MW careers in 1907 as well.
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Old 03-14-2006, 07:22 PM   #20
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WBA Title Fights: Well, Joe Gans did what he could not quite accomplish IRL, that is move up from LW to claim a WW World Title. Ironically, all three WBA title bouts in this class for 1906 ended the same way -- a DQ result:

Dixie Kid WDQ8 Mys. Billy Smith
Gans WDQ 10 Dixie Kid
Gans WDQ 13 Joe Walcott (these two legends were meeting for the first time)

NABF: Mys. Billy defended versus Hurley (UD12) and Dixie Kid (UD12) then lost the belt on a foul to Willie Lewis (WDQ11)

USBA: Mike (Twin) Sullivan took the crown from Rube Ferns (MD12) and defended three times: versus M. Matthews (UD 12) W Lewis (TKO 8) and Ferns in a rematch (UD 12)

CBU: Mysterious Billy defended versus Young Joseph (UD12) and then lost on a foul to Johnny Summers to complete the trifecta in 1906: losing three title bouts all on fouls (very consistent with his overall career record where he lost 11 bouts that way).

GBU: Summers defended twice, vacated the Title which was then claimed by Young Joseph (UD 12 over TC Patrick Davies).

EBU: Irishman Jimmy Gardner won the initial belt with a K07 of Dane Dick Nelson.

Jan 1907 Top Ten:
Gans is Champ, record of 54-5 (34)
1. Summers, up from #2 last year: #2 is Mike Sullivan, who went 4-0 to move up from #9 the prior year: #3 Willie Lewis, up 4 spots; Mysterious Billy only dropped 3 to #4; Gardner up 1 to #5; ex-Champ Dixie Kid at #6; Walcott down 4 to #7; Mellody down 3 to #5; Young Joseph dropped 5 to #9; Young Peter Jackson down 2 to #10. Battling Bill Hurley dropped out of the Top Ten (someone had to move down due to Gans winning the title from the LW division).

All the Top 10 fighters are in their Prime, and this is probably the most competitive division right now, as evidenced by the fact that all the Top 12 (including Matty Matthews and Rube Ferns) are rated at 500 pp or greater under the new ranking system. There were no retirements in 1906 and none on the horizon (Ferns just started Post-Prime in '06).

What will happen in 1907? What's up next for Mysterious Billy, who is now approaching Post-Prime? Can Joe Walcott regain his past form? Will Honey Mellody make a run at a title? Which of the following new prospects will be the first to break through: Jack Britton 11-0 (9), Kyle Whitney 7-0 (4), Harry Lewis 12-3-2 (6), Kid Graves 3-0 (1) or Jimmy Clabby 2-0 ? No new fighters join the ranks in 1907, but it's still shaping up to be another good year for the WW division.

Last edited by JCWeb; 03-14-2006 at 07:23 PM.
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