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Old 11-10-2019, 11:26 AM   #1
Pirates
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Confused

Can some please explain to me how:
A legendary Bert Blyleven is a Cleveland Indian
A Legendary Paul Molitor is a Toronto Blue Jay

This is what leads me to believe, people know very little about the history of baseball, but because they understand sabermetrics, they believe they are a baseball expert.
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Old 11-10-2019, 12:42 PM   #2
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You aren't likely to get many helpful responses when you insult stats-oriented folks on the forum for a stats-oriented game.
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Old 11-10-2019, 01:44 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabakin View Post
You aren't likely to get many helpful responses when you insult stats-oriented folks on the forum for a stats-oriented game.
If you put out a Legendary Card and you Don't know:
Paul Molitor is a Brewer not a Blue Jay
Blyleven is a Twin not an Indian

Then My comment is a fact and 100% correct.
In case no one ever told you:
Facts don't care about your FEELINGS.
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Old 11-10-2019, 01:52 PM   #4
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Just a wild guess here but maybe the Molitor card is based from 93-95 on his Peak seasons with the Blue Jays?
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Old 11-10-2019, 01:52 PM   #5
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maybe the cards are based on their performance at those teams? Blyleven had an excellent season in his time with the Indians and Molitor had 2 excellent seasons in his stint with the Jays, why can't they have cards for those years?
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Old 11-10-2019, 01:56 PM   #6
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yeah, I can see that.... the "legendary" card should be with the team where the player spent the bulk of their career (imho).... if it were my choices, the the Molitor-Toronto card would have been an 'all-star' addition for 1993; while his Legendary-Peak card would have had the 1987 year tagged to it in Milwaukee (though the Peak cards are typically a merge of best seasons).... and the Blyleven-Cleveland card would have been based off his 1985 season, with his legendary-peak card as a Twin


and hey, that can always change from year to year as the devs get feedback/etc; so never know what might happen in the next version
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Old 11-10-2019, 02:15 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirates View Post
If you put out a Legendary Card and you Don't know:
Paul Molitor is a Brewer not a Blue Jay
Blyleven is a Twin not an Indian

Then My comment is a fact and 100% correct.
In case no one ever told you:
Facts don't care about your FEELINGS.
How about alternative feelings?
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Old 11-10-2019, 02:17 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirates View Post
If you put out a Legendary Card and you Don't know:
Paul Molitor is a Brewer not a Blue Jay
Blyleven is a Twin not an Indian

Then My comment is a fact and 100% correct.
In case no one ever told you:
Facts don't care about your FEELINGS.
The stats you whine about agree that Molitor's best seasons were as a Brewer and Blyleven's were as a Twin. It's a flaw of the game, not of stats people. But if you want to be lazy and be the old man yelling at a cloud, go for it.
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Old 11-10-2019, 02:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabakin View Post
The stats you whine about agree that Molitor's best seasons were as a Brewer and Blyleven's were as a Twin. It's a flaw of the game, not of stats people. But if you want to be lazy and be the old man yelling at a cloud, go for it.
I didn't need a sabermetric stat to tell me what team should be on their Legendary card.
You needed to use sabermetric stats to agree with me.
So what does that tell us?
I'm not "Lazy" as you stated I was. I'm just smarter than you.
Thanks for playing. Better luck next time.
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Old 11-10-2019, 02:39 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirates View Post
I didn't need a sabermetric stat to tell me what team should be on their Legendary card.
You needed to use sabermetric stats to agree with me.
So what does that tell us?
I'm not "Lazy" as you stated I was. I'm just smarter than you.
Thanks for playing. Better luck next time.
You blamed the stats for the cards being wrong. The stats say the cards are wrong. So your premise about the stats being wrong was wrong.

I agreed with your point about the cards being tied to the wrong teams. Just pointing out that it's not for the reason you thought. You clearly have a bias against stats, and blamed that without looking deeper. That's what made you lazy.
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Old 11-10-2019, 02:43 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atabakin View Post
You blamed the stats for the cards being wrong. The stats say the cards are wrong. So your premise about the stats being wrong was wrong.

I agreed with your point about the cards being tied to the wrong teams. Just pointing out that it's not for the reason you thought. You clearly have a bias against stats, and blamed that without looking deeper. That's what made you lazy.
It's not the stats fault the cards are incorrect.
What I was saying is this:
People who know very little or nothing about baseball think they are baseball experts because they know Sabermetric stats.
This is how mistakes on said cards happen.

Sorry for the confusion.
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Old 11-10-2019, 02:56 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirates View Post
It's not the stats fault the cards are incorrect.
What I was saying is this:
People who know very little or nothing about baseball think they are baseball experts because they know Sabermetric stats.
This is how mistakes on said cards happen.

Sorry for the confusion.
I will agree that those who are laser focused on stats above anything else have a level of arrogance about them, which leads to a lot of the backlash. See the Astros and the Osuna situation. Sabermetrics can't be ignored, but they need to be used in conjunction with knowledge of the human element.

Sorry for perhaps being too defensive.
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Old 11-10-2019, 03:54 PM   #13
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This example is why, (To me), a lot of sabermetrics stats are flawed and meaningless.

In 1980 the Philadelphia Phillies won the World Series.
Pete Rose's WAR score in 1980 was -0.4.
Anyone with 2 or more brain cells when it comes to baseball would tell you:
Without Pete Rose, the Philadelphia Phillies would not have even made the Playoffs that year.

Some sabermetric statistics are severely flawed, such as WAR. Yet people with little baseball knowledge Use said stat to make personal decisions.
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Old 11-10-2019, 03:55 PM   #14
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I totally agree with the sentiment. A lot of the legends cards appear to be for the wrong teams. The worst offender IMO is Curt Schilling, who spent a long time in Philly and had his best seasons in Philly and Arizona, yet is somehow a Red Sox card.

However, the OP was pointlessly rude and confrontational about the subject, so I wouldn't blame the devs for totally ignoring his point.

How you say something and how you make people feel is just as important as what you say, often more so.

This is what leads me to believe, people know very little about how to talk to others, but because they understand the English language, they believe they are a rhetoric expert.
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:23 PM   #15
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Well hey, they played for both teams in both cases. Sometimes a player will have more than one card. And each of these cards is a little different. I've griped about cards exactly three times...? lol...Sometimes your point of view just doesn't line up with the game. But they are just people too so it makes sense that we'd have our differences.
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:26 PM   #16
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Apparently timing is rather important for correcting any perceived errors. There was a post dedicated to pointing out errors with the cards before the game was released...I came in pointing out the errors after this post was closed down and the seasons underway so keep an eye out for it before the next release I suppose.
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Old 11-10-2019, 10:36 PM   #17
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One of the things about a democratic environment is we end up with 8,000 and counting different opinions. So it's rather chaotic sometimes without some proper way to process all the different opinions.
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Old 11-11-2019, 01:17 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pirates View Post
This example is why, (To me), a lot of sabermetrics stats are flawed and meaningless.

In 1980 the Philadelphia Phillies won the World Series.
Pete Rose's WAR score in 1980 was -0.4.
Anyone with 2 or more brain cells when it comes to baseball would tell you:
Without Pete Rose, the Philadelphia Phillies would not have even made the Playoffs that year.

Some sabermetric statistics are severely flawed, such as WAR. Yet people with little baseball knowledge Use said stat to make personal decisions.
How do you think the Astros, or Red Sox, or Twins, or any modern baseball front office would react to the statement that sabermetrics are flawed? Do you think they have very little baseball knowledge?

I'll also note that your original complaint of e.g. Blyleven's PEAK card being an Indian has absolutely nothing to do with sabermetrics whatsoever. I am not sure you fully understand what sabermetrics are, or what they're used for, or how they're used, or why people use them.
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Old 11-11-2019, 02:00 AM   #19
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Maybe his point is that they're not the only thing that matters & that analysis and decisions are made & have been made differently in the '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s and now... Jeter is another example of a player who clearly defied sabermetrics. They're a pretty impressive tool but the popularity of them doesn't make them the best way to make decisions necessarily. Every time they will tell you that the players who performed best were best and should be in there. But they are designed that way, almost to look good. But that's after the fact, not an ability to scout players who have yet to play. Or maybe have not put up their best numbers yet but potentially could be the best option in the future. In the modern environment, so many players are not even in the discussion that don't get a chance to play.

Then again the talent pool is almost flooded with prospects today.

Wouldn't be an interesting exercise if we had to pick our players for PT 23 or 24 this winter from minor leaguers and other prospects who have yet to play Major League Baseball? And if the MLB scouts and other pieces of the franchise keep a player off the diamond, how can we judge his skills?
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Old 11-11-2019, 02:01 AM   #20
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How do you think the Astros, or Red Sox, or Twins, or any modern baseball front office would react to the statement that sabermetrics are flawed?
The good ones among those will understand the imperfections and recognize the limitations of their approach and be constantly reevaluating and evolving their best practices.

Sabermetrics is an analytical approach and a process. The most famous sabermetric stat, WAR, is a non-standardized metric that has no single established calculation. Even in this new age of statistical importance, teams believe their unique proprietary sabermetric analysis will be able to discover flaws in the valuation of players by other teams.

However, flawed does not imply a lack of significance or meaning.
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