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Old 01-25-2019, 02:40 AM   #21
NoOne
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i'm a bit on the fence about his longevity. i'm not a fan of guys that peter out @ 30. my hof is a bit smaller than the RL one.

5 solid full seasons, 2 solid shortened seasons, a solid age 30... koufax had less, lol, so ... ? maybe a better peak due to number of starts and time period.

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Old 01-25-2019, 05:28 PM   #22
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The 152 ERA+ had me at yes.
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Old 01-25-2019, 05:31 PM   #23
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Definitely. I don't really think they'd be much argument.
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Old 01-25-2019, 06:04 PM   #24
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Definitely. I don't really think they'd be much argument.
I disagree, I think there would be a huge argument. The hall voters will have a big issue with his lack of longevity. A lot of voters want at least 10 years of dominating. He had 7 years of dominating and 7 years not. Now if he has good playoff stats that would help his case.
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Old 01-25-2019, 08:58 PM   #25
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and there are players in the HoF with less.

it definitely isn't balck and white, except in certain circumstances.

if you are mimicing MLB, it's pretty clear he should be in the HoF, since he's got more than koufax in a few ways -- not as an amazing stretch but dominant, nontheless.

not everyone wants to mimic the RL HoF. i don't worry about the RL HoF at all. i pick a rough minimum ERA+ and 'enough' service time. 125-130 is about as low as it goes for me. this guy is already borderline and limited playing time... not so black and white.

flip a coin, proverbially speaking... or, rather the random preferences of each individual who encounters the same decision. i wouldn't argue about this guy being in or out of hte HoF, but i would argue that it's a done deal, becaue he's not in mine (or similar).
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Old 01-25-2019, 10:08 PM   #26
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I think that when comparing the pitcher to real life players we are leaving out one major detail.
How did he do against the players of his era in the sim and how does he compare to the players already in your hall of fame.
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Old 01-26-2019, 05:04 AM   #27
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As it pertains to a fictional leagues HOF, I agree with NoOne and BaseballMan. We shouldn't try to compare rl MLB HOF to it. Instead the league and it's HOF should be independent of, and beholden to only itself. Sure we use some of the criteria to choose candidates and inductees that is used to select them to the hall in rl, but it should be left at that I think.

Fictional leagues, even more so than MLB leagues, can be set up drastically different than MLB norms and thereby look and feel nothing alike. So as to compare the greats from those leagues to our rl greats would just be wrong. Obviously you could set up those leagues exactly the same with just different teams and fictional players or any number of possibilities in between, but any way that you do it they are inherently different from rl Mlb.

Regarding historical and semi-historical, it makes total sense to compare I would think. Please correct me if I am wrong as I have yet to walk those paths (though I intend to). As far as Modern is concerned, those leagues soon turn into fictional.

Please don't take what I am saying and how I am saying it the wrong way. I am by no means telling anyone that they have to think or play a certain way. I am merely trying to get the point across that as the saying goes "don't compare apples to hand grenades...you won't end up happy".

Either way to each their own. "It's your game, play it your way" is some damn wise words said by a wise person. That being said great conversation and debate has helped to make not only this game but also this community what it is, THE BEST DAMNED THING AROUND!
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Old 01-26-2019, 11:41 AM   #28
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I would vote yes as I usually start with 60 WAR as a starting point and his HOF metrics look pretty good. In real life he would probably get in but it probably wouldn't be first ballot and would probably require a lot of debate with the "new school stats" crowd ultimately lobbying for this guy
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Old 01-26-2019, 02:23 PM   #29
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I think that when comparing the pitcher to real life players we are leaving out one major detail.
How did he do against the players of his era in the sim and how does he compare to the players already in your hall of fame.
He was THE pitcher of his peak in his subleague. The other subleague was owned by Brad Smith (who is already in the Hall, see below), and well, there is lots of red numbers in his stats at the top of the thread.

It is a stark contrast to one of my other Hall of Famers, Nick Brown, who finished top 3 in a triple crown category *18* times without winning any even once. I guess that is what the black ink / gray ink is about.

Below are his postseason stats (not much, never got through the first round during his career, and in 2020 we lost in extra innings of a second tie-breaker - only the division winners, 4 out of 24 teams, make the playoffs in this league) as well as all the starting pitchers in the Hall. There are a few obscure ones, which were mostly inducted during the time this league (which I have played since 2012) ran in OOTP 12, so pre-actual-balloting in the game.

Thanks for all the opinions.^^
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Old 01-26-2019, 07:16 PM   #30
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Westheim please let us know if/when Jonathan Toner joins your Hall of Fame. Either way I am sure that the Raccoon's Trash Can of Legends (I believe that is the best and most respectful way to call your wall...lol) will be adding one more great to it's ranks!
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Old 01-26-2019, 08:34 PM   #31
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Oh I will, but at my current pace it will be about half a year, probably a bit more before he materializes on the ballot.^^
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1 OSANAI : 2 POWELL : 7 NOMURA | RAMOS : 8 REECE : 10 BROWN : 15 HALL : 27 FERNANDEZ : 28 CASAS : 31 CARMONA : 32 WEST : 39 TONER : 46 SAITO

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Old 01-27-2019, 07:42 PM   #32
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he wouldn't get an honorable mention. He was good but not near HOF level
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Old 01-27-2019, 10:05 PM   #33
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he wouldn't get an honorable mention. He was good but not near HOF level
Different strokes for different folks I guess. HoF-type guys can be compilers, crazy peak guys, or something in between. This guy belongs in the second camp, but he most definitely belongs.

It's not just about the length of his career and the milestone numbers that he put up. It's also a question of did the player in question dominate his league? And this guy most certainly did. He led his league in Wins twice, ERA 5 times, K 5 times, WHIP 4 times, with three other seasons where his WHIP was sub-1.00, K/9 six times, with two other seasons with a strikeout rate better than 1 per inning, pitching WAR 4 times, with three other seasons at 5+ WAR. This dominance also shows up in his awards and accomplishments with 4 Cy Young Awards, 1 Gold Glove, 9 All-Star Games, and at least 4 Silver Sluggers in just fifteen total seasons. That's a HoFer for me, but everybody has a different idea of what the HoF should be, and who should be in it. That's what makes these debates fun.
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Old 01-27-2019, 10:46 PM   #34
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@ ActionJackson …

HOF means TOP tier players he doesn't look like he had a career that could be even consider be the cream of the crop as the saying goes. Even in real life the HOF is being whittled down some and hard pressed as the BEST of the BEST. Even if you only do post WW2 only players. Yes I have HIGH standards and I have not lowered them and I wont.
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Old 01-27-2019, 11:46 PM   #35
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@ ActionJackson …

HOF means TOP tier players he doesn't look like he had a career that could be even consider be the cream of the crop as the saying goes. Even in real life the HOF is being whittled down some and hard pressed as the BEST of the BEST. Even if you only do post WW2 only players. Yes I have HIGH standards and I have not lowered them and I wont.
And that's why I said different strokes for different folks. Personally I would for sure lop off 12 of his 27 HoF SP, keep 9 of them, and have to take a deeper look at the other 6. But, it's not my HoF. The best of the best for me is the top 1% to ever play the game. IMHO, Mr. Toner, thanks to his insane peak, is a top one percenter, so, he would go in for me, and he wouldn't go in for you. That's fine. There has never been 100% consensus on any RL HoFer until Mo this year, and that's the way it should be. Doesn't mean either one of us is wrong. Just means that we view HoFers differently.
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Old 10-07-2019, 04:43 AM   #36
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Took some digging to find this thread again.

The time of truth has come. I have reached the 2032-33 offseason and Jonny T's on the ballot. We'll see in the next day or two what becomes of him.
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1983 * 1989 * 1991 * 1992 * 1993 * 1995 * 1996 * 2010 * 2017 * 2018 * 2019 * 2026 * 2028 * 2035 * 2037 * 2044 * 2045 * 2046 * 2047 * 2048 * 2051 * 2054 * 2055
1 OSANAI : 2 POWELL : 7 NOMURA | RAMOS : 8 REECE : 10 BROWN : 15 HALL : 27 FERNANDEZ : 28 CASAS : 31 CARMONA : 32 WEST : 39 TONER : 46 SAITO

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Old 10-08-2019, 06:39 PM   #37
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Mmm-mm-mm... …mmmww- -m-m-m-hh...h...ha-aappy …!!
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Portland Raccoons, 83 years of excell-.... of baseball: Furballs here!
1983 * 1989 * 1991 * 1992 * 1993 * 1995 * 1996 * 2010 * 2017 * 2018 * 2019 * 2026 * 2028 * 2035 * 2037 * 2044 * 2045 * 2046 * 2047 * 2048 * 2051 * 2054 * 2055
1 OSANAI : 2 POWELL : 7 NOMURA | RAMOS : 8 REECE : 10 BROWN : 15 HALL : 27 FERNANDEZ : 28 CASAS : 31 CARMONA : 32 WEST : 39 TONER : 46 SAITO

Resident Mets Cynic - The Mets from 1962 onwards, here.
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