For Whom the Bell Toles (Roscoe)

[cubedrum]

I also notice that Rosco doesn't have ANY 3 point punches. This more than makes up for his CF perhaps being too high.

Cube

[mking55]

Originally posted by cubedrum
The CF mandate is for realism's sake. Otherwise light hitting fighters would lose a lot to fighters they actually beat. I'm just contesting the overall rating equation.

Is that comment based on what it says in the ratings section of the manual for control factor?

I read it again and it seems to be both a 'control factor' rating and an 'adjustment rating' to get the fighter to fight at the level the rater thinks he should if the ratings as they should be don't work out.

I am a little troubled by this. Shouldn't control factor be control factor? If a 'tweak' is needed, it makes sense to me to have a 'tweak' rating. If you need an 'adjustment' rating because sometimes you just have to adjust an individual, why not have a rating that does just that?

Can some of the occassional performance/rating problems be related to trying to use one rating for 2 different purposes? How can I compare 'control factors' if for one fighter it is strictly a control factor, and for another it is a control plus adjustment factor?

[Cap]

Is that off his trunks or just off the exhibit card? The Ring Record Book in several different places writes it with an "e" at the end.

Cap

[cubedrum]

The record books aren't infallible. A great example of this is current middleweight Tarvis Simms. EVERY reference, except 1, I've ever seen on this guy says his name is Travis. The one reference is his management company, and it actually shows the name on his trunks as "Tarvis". Another one I ran into is Boxrec misspelling the word "bombadier" as "bombardier" all over their site.

Cube

[cubedrum]

Whoops, wrong photo.

Cube

[jofre]

Tarvis and his twin brother Tarvis are both unbeaten. One is a JMW; the other a MW.

[cubedrum]

Arrrrrgh. I stayed up too late last night. OK. This problem is now fixed in the database.

Cube

[JimTrunzo]

Hello,

It was a pleasure to discover this forum and the feedback on various fighters. Because of my position as the original designer of Title Bout for Avalon Hill and most of the follow-up iterations, I'm not going to pontificate or defend/criticize anything on these boards, out of respect for OOTP and the current owners and producers of the computer version of Title Fight.

However, I would like to clarify a few things that may help all of you in your debate about Toles and the Overall Rating:

1. Make sure that you're comparing apples to apples. By that I mean that fighters are truly only legitimately open to comparison on a set-by-set basis, unless otherwise stated in the literature/rules/documentation.

2. Part of the reason for the above is because along the way, we made a very bad mistake of allowing others to do season ratings for us; learning the hard way that unless the same person is doing the ratings, discrepancies will occur and personal bias will occasionally come into play. That is NOT saying that someone else's rating are bad/wrong/stink or anything like that. However, the key to rating a set of fighters is consistency as much as anything. For example, if I rate 100 fighters and in my mind a 35% punches landed rate represents "average", as long as I use that guideline when rating all 100 fighters, everything is relative and consistent. However, if I rate 25 fighters and someone else rates 25 fighters, etc. and each of us have a different idea of what percent of punches landed is "average" now the ratings are not going to be relative or consistent.

3. Because I don't know exactly what ratings are being discussed, I can't comment on them directly. I recently learned that anyone can go in and rate fighters or something along those lines (apologies if I'm off on this). If that's so, #1 and #2 become even more important to the discussion.

4. Rosco or Roscoe (and you'll find the two different spellings over and over) Toles may certainly be overrated as a "9" depending upon the group of fighters with whom he was rated. I think that the contributors have done a good job discussing the concept and Toles' virtues in the thread.

I will say this, the ratings that I've derived from the research for my upcoming book Boxing by the Numbers: The Heavyweights and used to design my new board game, successfully funded via Kickstarter, indicate that Toles is more likely to be - as someone accurately suggested - rated between 6-7 overall under my new rating system.

The Overall Rating was originally intended to be nothing more than a "quick glance" rating for those not overly familiar with boxing to match fighters who were on a nearly even level. However, and this was completely MY fault, the Overall Ratings became far less accurate a barometer as more and more changes were made in the game, in the formulas and in the number of people having input.

I also agree completely with those who feel that every "9" shouldn't perform the same; but I also agree with those who criticize some of the Overall Ratings for being off and misleading. They need not be viewed as "100% equal" but they should be in the ballpark.

Finally, I was impressed by the observation that high CFs partially make up for a lack of hitting power. I could never stress enough the fact that the numbers in and of themselves, viewed in isolation, were not to be taken at face value. It was the interplay of the numbers that made the game accurate (or inaccurate). The Control Factor was and is very important because it determines which fighter performs an action and a fighter can do next to nothing unless he is in control. That said, it is a fighter's other attributes that determine WHAT is done. If I have a 10/10 CF and a 1-32 PL and my opponent has a 10/10 CF and a 1-42 PL, I'm going to take a beating nine times out of ten . . . unless I have 1/1 Chin and a 12 HP and my opponent has a 5/7 Chin and a 1 HP. Now that changes everything.

The individual who said the high hitting power of the fighter in question (and it might have been Toles) allows him to stay competitive in spite of a low hitting power and that is more than likely the case, all other things being equal. In the case of Toles, who was not a big hitter, his strongest assets were his ability to constantly plod forward and throw punches. He wasn't a smooth, graceful puncher or slick mover; but he came out round after round and fought. That high CF would let him stay in control and potentially throw a lot of punches and hopefully have points add up and win him rounds.

Okay, enough from me. I have intentionally not discussed my products because I'm not here to "steal" customers or offend anyone in any way. I just had a good time reading the comments and wanted to lend some insight into the evolution of the game and specifically address Toles.

Wishing all of you, customers and game producers alike, the best in boxing enjoyment and a wonderful holiday - whatever you celebrate.

[Cap]

According to the Jan 22nd 1938 Afro American Toles first name was spelled ROSCOE. I've only seen it spelled this way. That photograph doesn't show his name on his trunks, it's just on the front of the exhibit card.

Cap

[bear]

Originally Posted by JimTrunzo

Hello,

It was a pleasure to discover this forum and the feedback on various fighters. Because of my position as the original designer of Title Bout for Avalon Hill and most of the follow-up iterations, I'm not going to pontificate or defend/criticize anything on these boards, out of respect for OOTP and the current owners and producers of the computer version of Title Fight.

However, I would like to clarify a few things that may help all of you in your debate about Toles and the Overall Rating:

1. Make sure that you're comparing apples to apples. By that I mean that fighters are truly only legitimately open to comparison on a set-by-set basis, unless otherwise stated in the literature/rules/documentation.

2. Part of the reason for the above is because along the way, we made a very bad mistake of allowing others to do season ratings for us; learning the hard way that unless the same person is doing the ratings, discrepancies will occur and personal bias will occasionally come into play. That is NOT saying that someone else's rating are bad/wrong/stink or anything like that. However, the key to rating a set of fighters is consistency as much as anything. For example, if I rate 100 fighters and in my mind a 35% punches landed rate represents "average", as long as I use that guideline when rating all 100 fighters, everything is relative and consistent. However, if I rate 25 fighters and someone else rates 25 fighters, etc. and each of us have a different idea of what percent of punches landed is "average" now the ratings are not going to be relative or consistent.

3. Because I don't know exactly what ratings are being discussed, I can't comment on them directly. I recently learned that anyone can go in and rate fighters or something along those lines (apologies if I'm off on this). If that's so, #1 and #2 become even more important to the discussion.

4. Rosco or Roscoe (and you'll find the two different spellings over and over) Toles may certainly be overrated as a "9" depending upon the group of fighters with whom he was rated. I think that the contributors have done a good job discussing the concept and Toles' virtues in the thread.

I will say this, the ratings that I've derived from the research for my upcoming book Boxing by the Numbers: The Heavyweights and used to design my new board game, successfully funded via Kickstarter, indicate that Toles is more likely to be - as someone accurately suggested - rated between 6-7 overall under my new rating system.

The Overall Rating was originally intended to be nothing more than a "quick glance" rating for those not overly familiar with boxing to match fighters who were on a nearly even level. However, and this was completely MY fault, the Overall Ratings became far less accurate a barometer as more and more changes were made in the game, in the formulas and in the number of people having input.

I also agree completely with those who feel that every "9" shouldn't perform the same; but I also agree with those who criticize some of the Overall Ratings for being off and misleading. They need not be viewed as "100% equal" but they should be in the ballpark.

Finally, I was impressed by the observation that high CFs partially make up for a lack of hitting power. I could never stress enough the fact that the numbers in and of themselves, viewed in isolation, were not to be taken at face value. It was the interplay of the numbers that made the game accurate (or inaccurate). The Control Factor was and is very important because it determines which fighter performs an action and a fighter can do next to nothing unless he is in control. That said, it is a fighter's other attributes that determine WHAT is done. If I have a 10/10 CF and a 1-32 PL and my opponent has a 10/10 CF and a 1-42 PL, I'm going to take a beating nine times out of ten . . . unless I have 1/1 Chin and a 12 HP and my opponent has a 5/7 Chin and a 1 HP. Now that changes everything.

The individual who said the high hitting power of the fighter in question (and it might have been Toles) allows him to stay competitive in spite of a low hitting power and that is more than likely the case, all other things being equal. In the case of Toles, who was not a big hitter, his strongest assets were his ability to constantly plod forward and throw punches. He wasn't a smooth, graceful puncher or slick mover; but he came out round after round and fought. That high CF would let him stay in control and potentially throw a lot of punches and hopefully have points add up and win him rounds.

Okay, enough from me. I have intentionally not discussed my products because I'm not here to "steal" customers or offend anyone in any way. I just had a good time reading the comments and wanted to lend some insight into the evolution of the game and specifically address Toles.

Wishing all of you, customers and game producers alike, the best in boxing enjoyment and a wonderful holiday - whatever you celebrate.

A Trunzo sighting. Good to hear from you and happy holidays Found a copy (incomplete) of your pre-Avalon Hill game at the IBHOF memorabilia show a couple of years ago. Is your new game available for purchase yet? I'm always curious about fighter ratings and can't wait to see your new ones.

bear (aka Don Koss)