Card list

[QuantaCondor]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

The major conn is the fact it gets it one step closer to a math formula instead of a game. Give us everything that's happening behind the scenes and all you have to do is plug in the numbers.


That's why war games have fog-of-war rules.

There is a huge amount of detail about the engine that is unknown. And in any case, knowing player ratings is basically unrelated to knowing how the actual engine functions.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by QuantaCondor

There is a huge amount of detail about the engine that is unknown. And in any case, knowing player ratings is basically unrelated to knowing how the actual engine functions.

Not arguing, just stating my opinion.

[rburgh]

Not arguing, just stating my opinion.

Isn't that what arguing is about?

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by rburgh

Isn't that what arguing is about?

No, arguing is telling the other person they are wrong.

[Warhawk]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

No, arguing is telling the other person they are wrong.

Are you guys arguing over the definition of arguing?

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Warhawk

Are you guys arguing over the definition of arguing?

Lol, all I did was state I'd rather not see the database. I like making things harder.

[Lemandria]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

The major conn is the fact it gets it one step closer to a math formula instead of a game. Give us everything that's happening behind the scenes and all you have to do is plug in the numbers.


That's why war games have fog-of-war rules.

Yes, there is something to what you say. I'm a closet statistician, I think far more in terms of standard deviations and curve fitting and margin of error than is good for 'proper' enjoyment of the game.


There is a risk to the intellectual property in releasing too much information. Some geek with a computer and a couple of undergraduate stats books could backward engineer the formulas the produce the ratings on the cards--and obviously that would lead to arguments over accuracy of the simulation ad nauseam. The very analysis of the ratings construction would tell you enormous information about the inner working of the game engine subroutines all by itself.


You could even plug in the numbers and crank out a winner, if you had an investor willing to bankroll your player purchases.


Those exist, right whales? You can just buy perfection, if you spend enough?


Oh. It doesn't really work like that?

[Dogberry99]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

The major conn is the fact it gets it one step closer to a math formula instead of a game. Give us everything that's happening behind the scenes and all you have to do is plug in the numbers.


That's why war games have fog-of-war rules.

Except that the information we're asking for is NOT behind the scenes. It is publicly available. We're merely asking for that availability to no longer be conditional based on arbitrary and inconsequential barriers.

[HRBaker]

Originally Posted by Dogberry99

Except that the information we're asking for is NOT behind the scenes. It is publicly available. We're merely asking for that availability to no longer be conditional based on silly and inconsequential barriers.

Look, let me make myself clear.

First, I'm stating MY opinion. If OOTP releases the database, I'll live with it - I did with PT20 and I'll do it again.

Second, there's nothing "silly or inconsequential" about this. As a mathematician, if I have the ratings for 4000+ players, and given the will and effort, I can figure out the weighted values of the various ratings to determine what rating is more important than others - and I can likely also determine how the OVL values are calculated. I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of the Whales have already done this.

When I only have the details of my players and what I see on in the Auction House, it becomes significantly more difficult to do this with fewer samples. In my case I've already spent some time in PT20 playing with the database and coming up with what "I" thought were some rules-of-thumb when I consider replacing a player. If I were to invest myself into the project, I could probably do better - and I'm sure there are players out there who have a better handle on math than I do and a will stronger than mine.

Third, I never added my opinion to try and sway the Devs to not release the database because they already made that decision last year and likely will do it again. I simply tried to state that there is always a danger that if TOO much data is made available, the game becomes more of a math exercise than a baseball game.

[Dogberry99]

Originally Posted by HRBaker

Look, let me make myself clear.


First, I'm stating MY opinion. If OOTP releases the database, I'll live with it - I did with PT20 and I'll do it again.

Second, there's nothing "silly or inconsequential" about this. As a mathematician, if I have the ratings for 4000+ players, and given the will and effort, I can figure out the weighted values of the various ratings to determine what rating is more important than others - and I can likely also determine how the OVL values are calculated. I wouldn't be surprised at all if some of the Whales have already done this.

When I only have the details of my players and what I see on in the Auction House, it becomes significantly more difficult to do this with fewer samples. In my case I've already spent some time in PT20 playing with the database and coming up with what "I" thought were some rules-of-thumb when I consider replacing a player. If I were to invest myself into the project, I could probably do better - and I'm sure there are players out there who have a better handle on math than I do and a will stronger than mine.


Third, I never added my opinion to try and sway the Devs to not release the database because they already made that decision last year and likely will do it again. I simply tried to state that there is always a danger that if TOO much data is made available, the game becomes more of a math exercise than a baseball game.

For the observers of this thread, I changed the word silly to arbitrary prior to the response as it fits better with the concept in my head. I just couldn't think of the right vocabulary quick enough. Silly carries negative connotations that I did not mean to convey, and I should have at a minimum recognized this prior to hitting send. I apologize for this error.

Additionally, the reason I call it arbitrary and inconsequential is because it is using time and the actions of others (both users selling cards in the Auction House and teams in your league leaving cards on their active or reserve rosters) as the filter determining what information is accessible. Given enough time and luck (as it pertains to the actions of others), it is elementary to compile a simple list of cards. None of the information we're asking for is hidden. All of it is already accessible in game. This request cannot result in too much data being released because all we're asking for is for data that is already released. I merely ask that it be accessible more consistently.

Additionally, I apologize if my stance or defense of it is causing any agitation. I do not intend to be antagonistic, but clearly I am failing at this. As such, I am sorry.

[Lemandria]

I'm willing to wait the additional time it takes to gather the data solely from in-game sources.

It just seems like an unnecessary delay. For a month or two, I won't have a complete enough dataset to take big-money risks.

That's okay, I'm unlikely to have big money *to* risk, either.

[HRBaker]

No harm done

[QuantaCondor]

All I'll say is that the existence of the card database at the beginning of PT20 was a big reason I got into the mode so deeply in the first place. If that database wasn't openly published, I would likely not be here providing input on this conversation. And now for this cycle, building tourney rosters in particular is totally untenable without a published database of cards and basic stats. "I prefer to not know" is totally defensible and can happen whether or not a database exists, but "I prefer that nobody knows" seems like a big overstep into imposing your way of playing the game onto others.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by QuantaCondor

All I'll say is that the existence of the card database at the beginning of PT20 was a big reason I got into the mode so deeply in the first place. If that database wasn't openly published, I would likely not be here providing input on this conversation. And now for this cycle, building tourney rosters in particular is totally untenable without a published database of cards and basic stats. "I prefer to not know" is totally defensible and can happen whether or not a database exists, but "I prefer that nobody knows" seems like a big overstep into imposing your way of playing the game onto others.

I don't know about that. Worst case you simply look at the winners of big tourneys you entered and BINGO, there are some pretty good options playing on these teams. On to auction house.

[stl jason]

I'm always for a release of the card list with ratings/etc, just like with v20.... just makes it that much easier to determine if a particular theme team is even tenable or if there aren't enough players that fit to really make it worth a full year effort


and while you can use all the ratings/etc to plug into formulas to try and determine the best outcome, no mathematical formula known to mankind would ever predict that Jeff Suppan (41) would pitch a complete game and defeat Harry Brecheen (99) in any universe (but it happens *sighs*)

[Boomcoach]

Originally Posted by Warhawk

Are you guys arguing over the definition of arguing?

"I'm sorry, this is getting hit on the head lessons."

[Markus Heinsohn]

OK, we have discussed this now, and we will release a list of the historical cards that the game will launch with. The list will contain card ID, card type, card title, card value tier and raw card value.

Here's an example:
13780;"One Hit Wonder, RF George Altman, CHC, 1962";GOLD;81

[dkgo]

I think it is great to have some information kept hidden from users.

I think it is awful to make people work to uncover public information though. The auction house is already tedious enough without having to manually record ratings of cards we see.

[mcdog512]

Originally Posted by dkgo

I think it is great to have some information kept hidden from users.

I think it is awful to make people work to uncover public information though. The auction house is already tedious enough without having to manually record ratings of cards we see.

"make people" is a bit strong.

[Dogberry99]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

OK, we have discussed this now, and we will release a list of the historical cards that the game will launch with. The list will contain card ID, card type, card title, card value tier and raw card value.

Here's an example:
13780;"One Hit Wonder, RF George Altman, CHC, 1962";GOLD;81

This is a step in the right direction. For future versions of PT, I would prefer to have this be an in game feature so it is accessible even to players who do not actively participate in the community. This is also why I would like it to include all cards, so all users would be aware of what new cards have been added. Additionally, there is value in knowing which live cards exist currently in game, and there is value in having this information presented in locations and formats more suitable to this purpose than the collection mission pages.

Originally Posted by mcdog512

"make people" is a bit strong.

No, it is accurate when presented conditionally. If you want any additional information on a card's publicly facing information, then you are forced to search for and find the card. I am still looking for something as simple as the Overall values of 1978 Fergie Jenkins, 1968 Dave Giusti, and 2005 Brad Lidge in PT20. I will not know their OVR's unless and until I find them or someone who has also found them.