Promotion & Relegation Discussion - How can we improve these feature?

spleen1015 · 03-21-2017, 11:43 AM

I hope it is okay with the OOTPDevs that I start this discussion. I created a league with 4 leagues and ran about 60 years of history to get an idea on how this feature works & looks in the long run. I create this thread as a place for discussion on the feature. A lot of folks were looking forward to this feature, so hopefully we get a lot of good feedback.

Here are my observations in no particular order.

1a. I would like to see the history of promotions & relegations tracked on a report, both at a league level & team level. It is easy to identify at a team level when looking at the History Team Index page as long as you name your leagues something meaningful. Is it possible to have a Promotion/Relegation report that shows this information? The report can be disabled or empty if a league doesn't use Promotion/Relegation.

1b. One idea is to color code the lines based on the league? Maybe some other way to visually show that a team was promoted or relegated?

1c. Along these same lines, I would like to see a report that lists how many times a team as been promoted or relegated by league.

2. A player should not be able to win Rookie of the Year awards in more than 1 league. I have 1 case where a player won RoY in the bottom league in 2045, became a FA after 2050, signed with a team in the top league and then won RoY & MVP in 2051.

3. I like that the stats are tracked separately. On the player card, when I am looking at batting stats, is there any way to display their stats by league at the bottom? Maybe under TOTAL add lines for each league?

4. Take a look at this link. About halfway down you see the heading 2016-2017 Season. The table show there would be nice as a report in OOTP. Or something similar?

5. Take a look at this link. The first table shown would be a good report for each league to represent promotions & relegations for each season.

If anyone else has any thoughts or ideas to make this feature better, please post them in this thread. Hopefully Markus & Co. can improve this feature in the next few patches.

Chico Guilbault · 03-21-2017, 11:47 AM

Thanks for doing this!

Did you run this with minor league teams? Curious if they get moved along with the parent club or if I would have to do that manually.

zrallo · 03-21-2017, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

2. A player should not be able to win Rookie of the Year awards in more than 1 league. I have 1 case where a player won RoY in the bottom league in 2045, became a FA after 2050, signed with a team in the top league and then won RoY & MVP in 2051.

This is the biggest issue for me, and needs to be fixed ASAP. In typical promotion/relegation systems, each individual league is united under a larger organization. For instance, in English football, the Premier League, the Championship and the two leagues beneath it are all part of the umbrella Football Association.

So, a "rookie" needs to be defined as someone playing their first year within the whole league structure, and not simply their first year in any of the given leagues within that league structure.

chuy1530 · 03-21-2017, 12:08 PM

I definitely agree that better reporting of P/Rs and being able to look up the history in more ways would make it better.

Another issue I had with it was that it seemed like the talent pools for of my 5 levels were even at the beginning. I checked rosters and tier 5 teams still had multiple 5 star players. Four years in things are much better; there are almost no 5 star players outside of the top tier and the bottom tier teams have a couple three stars at best. Is there a way though to change the talent level generated for the lower tiers?

Jamee999 · 03-21-2017, 12:10 PM

I actually disagree about RoY. I think that a player should be eligible to win in his first year of the league, if that's the highest level he's played at. A veteran shouldn't be able to be relegated and then win RoY in the second division, though. Just my opinion.

I think the next step with promotion and relegation has to be automatically supporting actual "pyramids" as opposed to just X up / X down formats. It needs to be able to relegate two teams from the top division, and replace it with one team each from two regional second divisions. Ideally it would be able to look at the location data for the cities, and shuffle the teams to make the new regional lower divisions geographically accurate, but that's not really necessary.

spleen1015 · 03-21-2017, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chico Guilbault

Thanks for doing this!

Did you run this with minor league teams? Curious if they get moved along with the parent club or if I would have to do that manually.

I haven't done anything with minor leagues yet.

I assume that you will have to set up their own promotion/relegation system just like you do with your major leagues. That's the way I like it I think.

I like the idea that if I don't want the minors to be P/R then they don't have to be.

eriqjaffe · 03-21-2017, 12:24 PM

Beyond simply "the last X teams get relegated", I would love to see the ability to implement playdowns - an inverted playoff structure where the losing teams "advance" to the next round.

That way, even if you finish dead last you could still make a desperate playoff-type push to avoid relegation.

spleen1015 · 03-21-2017, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuy1530

I definitely agree that better reporting of P/Rs and being able to look up the history in more ways would make it better.

Another issue I had with it was that it seemed like the talent pools for of my 5 levels were even at the beginning. I checked rosters and tier 5 teams still had multiple 5 star players. Four years in things are much better; there are almost no 5 star players outside of the top tier and the bottom tier teams have a couple three stars at best. Is there a way though to change the talent level generated for the lower tiers?

There is a league reputation setting. I wonder if that has the effect you are talking about.

chuy1530 · 03-21-2017, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

There is a league reputation setting. I wonder if that has the effect you are talking about.

Doesn't seem to for the initial player generation at least. I had mine set at 10-8-6-4-2.

Jamee999 · 03-21-2017, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eriqjaffe

Beyond simply "the last X teams get relegated", I would love to see the ability to implement playdowns - an inverted playoff structure where the losing teams "advance" to the next round.

That way, even if you finish dead last you could still make a desperate playoff-type push to avoid relegation.

Some soccer leagues do something like this, though it works a little differently - check out the description for promotion and relegation in the Scottish Championship.

MUFC1878 · 03-21-2017, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuy1530

Doesn't seem to for the initial player generation at least. I had mine set at 10-8-6-4-2.

What level are the leagues?

eriqjaffe · 03-21-2017, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamee999

Some soccer leagues do something like this, though it works a little differently - check out the description for promotion and relegation in the Scottish Championship.

That's a crazy setup.

In the baseball world, Honkbal Hoofdklasse does something like this - after the regular season, the top four and bottom four participate in round robin tournaments. The teams with the two best records in the top division round robin play in the Holland Series, and the loser of the bottom division plays a series with the winner of the second-tier Honkbal Overgangsklasse and the winner of THAT series moves to (or stays in) the Hoofdklasse. So there may or may not be relegation depending on the outcome.

chuy1530 · 03-21-2017, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MUFC1878

What level are the leagues?

All major, which I think they have to be for P/R to work, right?

MUFC1878 · 03-21-2017, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spleen1015

I haven't done anything with minor leagues yet.

I assume that you will have to set up their own promotion/relegation system just like you do with your major leagues. That's the way I like it I think.

I like the idea that if I don't want the minors to be P/R then they don't have to be.

Minor leagues don't have pro/rel options. They're not on the options tab once a league is affiliated.

spleen1015 · 03-21-2017, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MUFC1878

Minor leagues don't have pro/rel options. They're not on the options tab once a league is affiliated.

I guess that answers that!

professor ape · 03-21-2017, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamee999

I think the next step with promotion and relegation has to be automatically supporting actual "pyramids" as opposed to just X up / X down formats. It needs to be able to relegate two teams from the top division, and replace it with one team each from two regional second divisions. Ideally it would be able to look at the location data for the cities, and shuffle the teams to make the new regional lower divisions geographically accurate, but that's not really necessary.

That is a big one for me. It will probably be a month or so before I can dive in but my vision is to have a P/R set of leagues similar to UK football (but smaller) with four levels. One 'premier' league at the top, one second tier, two at the third level, and four leagues in the final tier.

MUFC1878 · 03-21-2017, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chuy1530

All major, which I think they have to be for P/R to work, right?

If they're all major then the talent levels of created players are similar. You can have the top league be ML, then the second international, then AAA, etc.

jDaveMc1984 · 03-21-2017, 01:20 PM

I haven't bought the game yet, but I'm seriously pumped about the Pro/Rel setup. I think if you combine that with the round robin playoffs that'll make for some exciting baseball!

I wonder if we could add in transfer windows as well? I mean it's not really baseball, but it would make it more interesting with the Pro/Rel format

spleen1015 · 03-21-2017, 01:24 PM

There's news stories that cover P/R. So, that's good.

Chico Guilbault · 03-21-2017, 01:25 PM

I didn't even realize that you can create an association for all the leagues involved in the P/R and then share a draft. Toying with the idea of using this and having the order of the draft completely random across all teams. It doesn't look like you can order by league first without having the lower leagues go first. I think I would prefer the opposite there.

Even more exciting seems to be setting up an FA cup type playoff using all the teams in the association. Looks like it would have to be at the end of year only, but I think you could get all teams involved. Something to think about anyway.

03-21-2017, 11:43 AM	#1
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 5,951	Promotion & Relegation Discussion - How can we improve these feature? I hope it is okay with the OOTPDevs that I start this discussion. I created a league with 4 leagues and ran about 60 years of history to get an idea on how this feature works & looks in the long run. I create this thread as a place for discussion on the feature. A lot of folks were looking forward to this feature, so hopefully we get a lot of good feedback. Here are my observations in no particular order. 1a. I would like to see the history of promotions & relegations tracked on a report, both at a league level & team level. It is easy to identify at a team level when looking at the History Team Index page as long as you name your leagues something meaningful. Is it possible to have a Promotion/Relegation report that shows this information? The report can be disabled or empty if a league doesn't use Promotion/Relegation. 1b. One idea is to color code the lines based on the league? Maybe some other way to visually show that a team was promoted or relegated? 1c. Along these same lines, I would like to see a report that lists how many times a team as been promoted or relegated by league. 2. A player should not be able to win Rookie of the Year awards in more than 1 league. I have 1 case where a player won RoY in the bottom league in 2045, became a FA after 2050, signed with a team in the top league and then won RoY & MVP in 2051. 3. I like that the stats are tracked separately. On the player card, when I am looking at batting stats, is there any way to display their stats by league at the bottom? Maybe under TOTAL add lines for each league? 4. Take a look at this link. About halfway down you see the heading 2016-2017 Season. The table show there would be nice as a report in OOTP. Or something similar? 5. Take a look at this link. The first table shown would be a good report for each league to represent promotions & relegations for each season. If anyone else has any thoughts or ideas to make this feature better, please post them in this thread. Hopefully Markus & Co. can improve this feature in the next few patches.

03-21-2017, 11:47 AM	#2
Chico Guilbault All Star Starter Join Date: May 2015 Location: Harlingen, NJ Posts: 1,063	Thanks for doing this! Did you run this with minor league teams? Curious if they get moved along with the parent club or if I would have to do that manually. __________________ BeechumCounty.com

03-21-2017, 12:24 PM	#7
eriqjaffe Hall Of Famer Join Date: May 2003 Location: Under The Christmas Fish Posts: 7,486	Beyond simply "the last X teams get relegated", I would love to see the ability to implement playdowns - an inverted playoff structure where the losing teams "advance" to the next round. That way, even if you finish dead last you could still make a desperate playoff-type push to avoid relegation. __________________

03-21-2017, 01:20 PM	#18
jDaveMc1984 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Gap PA Posts: 94 Blog Entries: 1	I haven't bought the game yet, but I'm seriously pumped about the Pro/Rel setup. I think if you combine that with the round robin playoffs that'll make for some exciting baseball! I wonder if we could add in transfer windows as well? I mean it's not really baseball, but it would make it more interesting with the Pro/Rel format __________________ I just got out of the shower!

03-21-2017, 01:25 PM	#20
Chico Guilbault All Star Starter Join Date: May 2015 Location: Harlingen, NJ Posts: 1,063	I didn't even realize that you can create an association for all the leagues involved in the P/R and then share a draft. Toying with the idea of using this and having the order of the draft completely random across all teams. It doesn't look like you can order by league first without having the lower leagues go first. I think I would prefer the opposite there. Even more exciting seems to be setting up an FA cup type playoff using all the teams in the association. Looks like it would have to be at the end of year only, but I think you could get all teams involved. Something to think about anyway. __________________ BeechumCounty.com

03-21-2017, 12:08 PM	#4
chuy1530 Minors (Single A) Join Date: Apr 2012 Posts: 53	I definitely agree that better reporting of P/Rs and being able to look up the history in more ways would make it better. Another issue I had with it was that it seemed like the talent pools for of my 5 levels were even at the beginning. I checked rosters and tier 5 teams still had multiple 5 star players. Four years in things are much better; there are almost no 5 star players outside of the top tier and the bottom tier teams have a couple three stars at best. Is there a way though to change the talent level generated for the lower tiers?

03-21-2017, 12:10 PM	#5
Jamee999 All Star Reserve Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 769	I actually disagree about RoY. I think that a player should be eligible to win in his first year of the league, if that's the highest level he's played at. A veteran shouldn't be able to be relegated and then win RoY in the second division, though. Just my opinion. I think the next step with promotion and relegation has to be automatically supporting actual "pyramids" as opposed to just X up / X down formats. It needs to be able to relegate two teams from the top division, and replace it with one team each from two regional second divisions. Ideally it would be able to look at the location data for the cities, and shuffle the teams to make the new regional lower divisions geographically accurate, but that's not really necessary.

03-21-2017, 01:24 PM	#19
spleen1015 Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 5,951	There's news stories that cover P/R. So, that's good.