ALL STAR Replay ratings, Frank Moran, where's Gunboat?

[steamboat brand, palooka]

I've played the Title Bout board game for years and years. About twenty years ago, I got an issue of "All Star Replay", a magazine put out by the Avalon Hill game company. Inside, it had an insert with the cards of the 10 most prominent White Hope Era heavyweights. (Actually, the 9 most prominent, because Charley Weinert was somehow included in this set, and he first appeared at the very tail end of that period. I replaced him with Jess Willard, from the regular, yellow trimmed Title Bout card set.)
With the Big Four black heavyweights from 1910-1915, Jack Johnson, Sam Langford, Joe Jeanette and Sam McVey, and easily the BEST four of all, already included in the regular set of Title Bout cards, that made a surprisingly comprehensive White Hope Era Heavyweight set.
They're all gone! I lost them. This is very upsetting. I was moving, and with only 14 cards in the stack, they slipped out of the Title Bout game box. I remember a FEW basic ratings, but not nearly all of them. To rub it in, Charley Weinert still sits there in the regular fighter deck.
I am wondering: Is there ANYONE out there who has the All Star Replay set that I speak of, and if so, can you send me the complete Title Bout CARD ratings of the following fighters?:
1. Jack Johnson(from regular set)
2. Sam Langford(from regular set)
3. Joe Jeanette(from regular set)
4. Sam McVey(from regular set)
5. Luther McCarty
6. Gunboat Smith
7. Jess Willard(from regular set)
8. Jim Coffey
9. Carl Morris
10.Jim Flynn
11.Billy Wells
12.Frank Moran
13.Arthur Pelkey
14. Al Palzer
I would greatly appreciate the help of possibly the only person on earth who still has these cards, if they ever did.
Two questions about the computer game:
1. Why isn't Gunboat Smith rated? He was one of the two or three best "White Hopes" from 1910-1915.
2. Why (the Hell) is Frank Moran rated an 8, above all the other white heavyweights from this "White Hope" period??? It's true he got two title shots, but from his record, I bet Jack Johnson and Jess Willard were looking for an easy payday. Here is evidence from his prime of 1911-1917:

a. He fought Gunboat Smith three times, in 1912,1916 and 1917. Each time he went the distance but lost DECISIVELY each time.
b. He fought 21 year old Luther McCarty in 1913, and he went the distance but lost decisively.
c. In 1912 in three straight months, he lost decisions to Al Kubiak, Tom Kennedy and Tony Ross, who together comprise a good portion of the second tier of White Hope Era heavyweights.
d. He fought Carl Morris once, in 1917. Morris won an easy decision.
e. He lost a clear decision to Jess Willard, when they fought for the title, the only time they met in the ring.
f. In 1911 he was stopped by Jim Savage, possibly the best of the 2nd level White Hope heavyweights.
g. 1912, he lost a 4 round decision to Denver Jack Geyer, which I'll cancel with his 4 round decision over Charley Horn the same year.
h. 1916, loses decision to Jack "The Giant Killer" Dillon. Dillon is excellent, but he probably has 40 pounds on Dillon

His best bouts were these, in approximate order of importance:

-2 kos of Jim Coffey. Good wins. In the book "White Hopes and other Tigers", there is even the talk that at least one of these bouts were rigged. From the records of each fighter against common opponents, it's easy to see why they talked.

- 1915 10th round knockout of Bombardier Wells, a fight he was losing up until the time of the knockout.

-1913 7th round ko of Al Palzer. Not legendary, but a real ko.
-1911 decision over Al Palzer. Whenever you went the distance with Palzer, you won on points. Frank did too.
-1913 Kayoes Tim Logan in 4 rounds. The other top heavyweights would have probably done it in less time. Tim was 3rd tier.
- 1913 OUTPOINTS Sailor White in 6 rounds. The fact that Sailor went the distance is not something Frank needs to highlight, when discussing this victory.
-kos Fred Storbeck in 12 rounds, 1912. Was losing until the knockout. Storbeck was koed in 6 rounds later in 1912 by Jim Stewart, 2nd tier heavyweight. Storbeck= 3rd tier heavyweight.
- kos teenager Tom Cowler in 1911
-kayoes Tom Cowler again in 1917. Good wins, but Tom had a close to Wells chin.
-1912. Outpoints Harry Wuest. zzzzzzzzzz
-1914. loses one sided clinch filled decision to Jack Johnson for the heavyweight championship. He lost, but at least he was there.

Summary- Frank Moran was tough, and hard to knock out. He had a hard punch, but not so hard that he could beat most of the top heavyweights with it. He was a punching bag for Gunboat Smith three times, for Carl Morris, for young Luther McCarty, for Jim Savage, and for Al Kubiak, Tom Kennedy and Tony Ross. He was even Fred Storbeck's punching bag for seven rounds.
There is NO WAY he was the best of the White Hope Era white heavyweights.

[Thunder]

Enjoy!

[IceTea]

I'll work on a rating of him over this week. I used the cards to create Roy Williams some time ago.

[mh2365]

Gunboat Smith is in the database

[steamboat brand, palooka]

The great THUNDER!!!!!!!!!!!! This is good news which I didn't expect to happen. Thanks, Thunder.
A note on those cards: I believe Gunboat Smith's Kdr 1 Kdr2 and Kor were computed incorrectly, from a career review. I remember changing them to 5 1 5, because his career "KO by" stats were very similar to Frank Moran, who has a 5 1 5. Both of these ratings are a little high for my liking, but I figured if Frank got it, then Gunboat should, too. Because I studied this period so extensively, I made a couple of changes on my own, such as raising Billy Wells' control factor by 2, and also his power, to offset no 3 point punches, while keeping him glass jawed. Wells was a master boxer/puncher until someone actually hit him. Also, I raised Al Palzer's power to 8, though I would have put his power up only by 1 if he wasn't deprived of 3 point punches.
I DO have a second Jess Willard and Sam Langford yellow bordered card, because I bought the same Title Bout board game three times, on different years, but I don't still have Jack Johnson, Joe Jeanette or Sam McVey's Title Bout cards.
I always put the "Big Four" Johnson-Langford-Jeanette-McVey cards in the mix with the "White Hope" Heavyweights, but it's kind of cruel, like feeding mice to pythons.
I am going to finally add the following fighters to my set, which will be set in 1912, though their ring movement, clinching and favored punches are bound to be more generic:
1. Jim Savage 5-10 1/2 185 Orange, N.J.
2. Jim Stewart 6-4 210 Brooklyn
3. Tony Ross 5-9 205 New Castle, Pa.
4. Tom Kennedy 6-1 200 New York
5. Porky Flynn 5-10 1/2 190 Boston
6. One Round Davis 6-1 185 Buffalo
7. Jack "Twin" Sullivan 5-9 1/2 175 Boston/Buffalo
8. Tom McMahon 5-11 185 Pittsburgh
9. Dan Daily 6-6 210 New Castle, Pa./Williamsport
10. Soldier Kearns 5-10 205 Brooklyn
11. Sailor White ? 200 Brooklyn/Newark
12. Andy Morris ? 190 Boston
13. Sandy Ferguson 6-3 215 Boston
14. Al Kaufman 6-3(1?) 205 San Francisco
15. Jack Geyer 6-1 190 Denver
16. George Rodel 6-1 190 South Africa(a stretch for 1912)
17. Al Kubiak 6-2 210 Grand Rapids, Mich.(should be included in cyber zone "White Hope Heavyweight" list. Al Benedict could get tossed out on his ear; look at his record. A lot of those included were really AFTER 1915)
18. Charley Horn (forgot the height stats) 200 San Francisco. Borderline
19. Fred Storbeck 6-0 190 South Africa(because he came to New York City)
20. Jim Barry 5-10 1/2 205 Chicago I always put him in the White Hope list, though I found out he was probably a black heavyweight. That's okay. He stays. Hey, Sam Langford was going to fight Gunboat Smith for the White Heavyweight championship if Gunboat had beaten Carpentier.
21. Battling Jim Johnson Philadelphia. Not rated quite as highly as before though. That's it.
Apologies to Charley Miller, Jack McFarland, Tim Logan, Jeff Clarke, Soldier Delaney, Jack Reed, Harry Wuest, John Wille, Fred McKay and even Al Benedict, who I just knocked down by mentioning his name.

[Romultiltus]

Originally Posted by steamboat brand, palooka

... but I don't still have Jack Johnson, Joe Jeanette or Sam McVey's Title Bout cards.

...

[Cap]

Hey, Steamboat! did you ever get yourself a PC or are you still emailing from the public library?

You should definitely try the new version of the game.

Cap

Originally Posted by steamboat brand, palooka

The great THUNDER!!!!!!!!!!!! This is good news which I didn't expect to happen. Thanks, Thunder.
A note on those cards: I believe Gunboat Smith's Kdr 1 Kdr2 and Kor were computed incorrectly, from a career review. I remember changing them to 5 1 5, because his career "KO by" stats were very similar to Frank Moran, who has a 5 1 5. Both of these ratings are a little high for my liking, but I figured if Frank got it, then Gunboat should, too. Because I studied this period so extensively, I made a couple of changes on my own, such as raising Billy Wells' control factor by 2, and also his power, to offset no 3 point punches, while keeping him glass jawed. Wells was a master boxer/puncher until someone actually hit him. Also, I raised Al Palzer's power to 8, though I would have put his power up only by 1 if he wasn't deprived of 3 point punches.
I DO have a second Jess Willard and Sam Langford yellow bordered card, because I bought the same Title Bout board game three times, on different years, but I don't still have Jack Johnson, Joe Jeanette or Sam McVey's Title Bout cards.
I always put the "Big Four" Johnson-Langford-Jeanette-McVey cards in the mix with the "White Hope" Heavyweights, but it's kind of cruel, like feeding mice to pythons.
I am going to finally add the following fighters to my set, which will be set in 1912, though their ring movement, clinching and favored punches are bound to be more generic:
1. Jim Savage 5-10 1/2 185 Orange, N.J.
2. Jim Stewart 6-4 210 Brooklyn
3. Tony Ross 5-9 205 New Castle, Pa.
4. Tom Kennedy 6-1 200 New York
5. Porky Flynn 5-10 1/2 190 Boston
6. One Round Davis 6-1 185 Buffalo
7. Jack "Twin" Sullivan 5-9 1/2 175 Boston/Buffalo
8. Tom McMahon 5-11 185 Pittsburgh
9. Dan Daily 6-6 210 New Castle, Pa./Williamsport
10. Soldier Kearns 5-10 205 Brooklyn
11. Sailor White ? 200 Brooklyn/Newark
12. Andy Morris ? 190 Boston
13. Sandy Ferguson 6-3 215 Boston
14. Al Kaufman 6-3(1?) 205 San Francisco
15. Jack Geyer 6-1 190 Denver
16. George Rodel 6-1 190 South Africa(a stretch for 1912)
17. Al Kubiak 6-2 210 Grand Rapids, Mich.(should be included in cyber zone "White Hope Heavyweight" list. Al Benedict could get tossed out on his ear; look at his record. A lot of those included were really AFTER 1915)
18. Charley Horn (forgot the height stats) 200 San Francisco. Borderline
19. Fred Storbeck 6-0 190 South Africa(because he came to New York City)
20. Jim Barry 5-10 1/2 205 Chicago I always put him in the White Hope list, though I found out he was probably a black heavyweight. That's okay. He stays. Hey, Sam Langford was going to fight Gunboat Smith for the White Heavyweight championship if Gunboat had beaten Carpentier.
21. Battling Jim Johnson Philadelphia. Not rated quite as highly as before though. That's it.
Apologies to Charley Miller, Jack McFarland, Tim Logan, Jeff Clarke, Soldier Delaney, Jack Reed, Harry Wuest, John Wille, Fred McKay and even Al Benedict, who I just knocked down by mentioning his name.

[Cap]

Found this picture of "a" Tim Logan, but no way to tell which one he is. It's the one I'm using until a better one comes along.

Cap

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Thanks very much to you board game owners, for your big help. Thunder, Romultiltus and Cap. I see Connecticut listed on some of your locations, and that's where I'm from, too.
Cap, I never DID find that Jeff Madden photo. Thanks for the Tim Logan photo, which is one of the two I printed. As far as that Tim Logan photo goes, the first Tim Logan photo was of a different man, with big bulky heavyweight biceps, but then another poster put up the same photo with "Harry Scroggs" as the fighter. Harry Scroggs was a lightweight, and he must have been a very short and rugged lightweight, if this photo was him. When I saw this Tim Logan photo, I thought of a lightweight fighter, rather than a heavyweight. He has a relatively slender neck, and his left shoulder takes a very sharp downward, like a thin person's would. The OTHER Tim Logan/Harry Scroggs fellow looks more like a heavyweight. This mystery has bugged me for three years, and it has even eliminated Tim Logan from my 1912 heavyweight gang! And without Tim, I can't use Soldier Delaney, Jack McFarland, and Al Benedict either to feed the more competent heavyweights.

[Cap]

Have you got the physical stats on Logan? A number of those white hopes were only around 180. Heck Gunboat Smith sometimes weighed just over the light heavyweight limit. I notice Logan weighed 185 early on for one fight with Battling Levinsky. Not saying this is Logan, but if he was 6 foot one or two and weighed 180-185 he could look a tad on the thin side.

Cap

Originally Posted by steamboat brand, palooka

Thanks very much to you board game owners, for your big help. Thunder, Romultiltus and Cap. I see Connecticut listed on some of your locations, and that's where I'm from, too.
Cap, I never DID find that Jeff Madden photo. Thanks for the Tim Logan photo, which is one of the two I printed. As far as that Tim Logan photo goes, the first Tim Logan photo was of a different man, with big bulky heavyweight biceps, but then another poster put up the same photo with "Harry Scroggs" as the fighter. Harry Scroggs was a lightweight, and he must have been a very short and rugged lightweight, if this photo was him. When I saw this Tim Logan photo, I thought of a lightweight fighter, rather than a heavyweight. He has a relatively slender neck, and his left shoulder takes a very sharp downward, like a thin person's would. The OTHER Tim Logan/Harry Scroggs fellow looks more like a heavyweight. This mystery has bugged me for three years, and it has even eliminated Tim Logan from my 1912 heavyweight gang! And without Tim, I can't use Soldier Delaney, Jack McFarland, and Al Benedict either to feed the more competent heavyweights.

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Cap, I've ALWAYS liked the idea of the Title Bout computer game, but my wallet is always a little too thin for a computer. Title Bout certainly would be one of my first purchases. I'm very happy playing the Title Bout board game, though a computer game forum is not the place to say that, I guess. I know it wasn't BEFORE. If I don't plug in the game, and flip homemade(five across, on a file card)fast action cards instead, I still have a lot of fun.
I'm into boxing HISTORY, and this forum is the best place for that, for me. All those photos I NEVER thought I'd see, years ago. I thought I was the ONLY one who cared about Battling Jim Johnson, Gus Ruhlin or Charley Miller, nowadays. Happily, I found out otherwise.

[Cap]

Drop around anytime and chew the fat. I think there might be a couple of guys here who still play the board game.

Cap

[steamboat brand, palooka]

Cap, I remember Tim Logan's weight usually was around 200 in 1912, 1913 and 1914, during his "prime". He served on the battleship Connecticut, but unless there is a shot of the crew, that doesn't help. Apparently he fought a "Schlossberg" for the Navy heavyweight championship in 1912.
It's very difficult finding the cutoff point for who to include, and who to exclude, while I'm creating a Jack Johnson/Sam Langford/White Hope Era heavyweight scene. The more you research, the more you find someone new to consider. I've been stuck on 1912, partly because of this.
Boxrec.com has been a great discovery, in doing the research; before I wasn't even aware of a few non New York bouts, though my New York Times fight account scrapbook is extensive.
1912 is a very representative year; the "Big Four" are in their primes, and almost EVERY significant "White Hope" heavyweight is active. After 1912, lighter fighters such as Jack Dillon, Georges Carpentier and Battling Levinsky came onto the scene, beating the lumbering heavyweights. Then you start including THEIR opponents, and it spreads out of control from there. Too many possibilities. Jack "Twin" Sullivan is about the only 1912 fighter who fit the "Giant Killer" bill here, though Levinsky was also starting to toy with heavyweights, by the end of 1912. But even Jack weighed in at 176 for one major 1912 bout, which made him a legitmate heavyweight that night.
Because there were relatively so many fights between contenders back in 1912, you can make a very educated prediction of the outcome when two fighters matched, which is a big help in calculating their ratings. Luther McCarty's potential is not a mystery in 1912, because we KNOW how good he was in 1912, at least until the end of the year. He was already one of the top heavyweights at 20 years old, but he was definately beatable, because he was outpointed at least once in New York City.
In conclusion, Cap, do you know how tall Sailor White and Andy Morris were? I read the account of White's first bout bout with 6-3 1/2 Victor McLaglen, and it describes White initially having trouble fighting "the taller man". That indicates to me he wasn't over six feet tall, or they wouldn't have mentioned it. That is all.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Cap

Drop around anytime and chew the fat. I think there might be a couple of guys here who still play the board game.

Cap

I still fiddle now and then . . am working on perfecting 90s heavys at this time

[Cap]

Originally Posted by steamboat brand, palooka

Cap, I remember Tim Logan's weight usually was around 200 in 1912, 1913 and 1914, during his "prime". He served on the battleship Connecticut, but unless there is a shot of the crew, that doesn't help. Apparently he fought a "Schlossberg" for the Navy heavyweight championship in 1912.

According to Boxrec he did weigh 185 for that one fight with Levinsky in 1913.

Cap

[steamboat brand, palooka]

(Thanks AGAIN, Thunder + Romultiltus, for those cards)
Cap, I'd like to think it's really Tim Logan, but I'm still a bit uneasy about it. This Tim Logan looks Irish alright, but if I threw the image I see here in against Sam Langford, I'd fear for his life! Of course, I'd fear for Tim Logan's life against Sam Langford anyway, just going on their perspective records.
I don't know if you remember the other photo purportedly of Tim Logan, but later identified as Harry Scroggs, a lightweight. It's a three quarter view, with gloves on, with Harry/Tim looking slightly to an angle not directly at you. This guy has very rugged arms, like a heavyweight. I see now that Tim Logan did fight as low as 185, but the direct view here looks like a lightweight himself. But I guess this one probably IS Tim, since the photo is identified as him. I sure don't feel secure about it, though.
I need to find Tim Logan's great grandchildren, to be sure. An easier way would be to find a different Harry Scroggs photo.
p.s. Cap-I've put my lists of top1912 "White Hope" heavyweights up before. I was wondering who your own top 25 would be FROM 1912. Also who would be the top two 1912 black heavyweights other then the Big Four? I'm guessing B.Jim Johnson and Jeff Clarke.
p.s.2 Cap- That Charles "Sailor" White boxing pose was lefty. lightweight contender from the same time Charley White was also a lefty. ???
p.s.3 Cap Was Jim Barry a black heavyweight, or a "White Hope" heavyweight?

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by steamboat brand, palooka

(Thanks AGAIN, Thunder + Romultiltus, for those cards)

no problem

[Cap]

Originally Posted by steamboat brand, palooka

(Thanks AGAIN, Thunder + Romultiltus, for those cards)
Cap, I'd like to think it's really Tim Logan, but I'm still a bit uneasy about it. This Tim Logan looks Irish alright, but if I threw the image I see here in against Sam Langford, I'd fear for his life! Of course, I'd fear for Tim Logan's life against Sam Langford anyway, just going on their perspective records.
I don't know if you remember the other photo purportedly of Tim Logan, but later identified as Harry Scroggs, a lightweight. It's a three quarter view, with gloves on, with Harry/Tim looking slightly to an angle not directly at you. This guy has very rugged arms, like a heavyweight. I see now that Tim Logan did fight as low as 185, but the direct view here looks like a lightweight himself. But I guess this one probably IS Tim, since the photo is identified as him. I sure don't feel secure about it, though.
I need to find Tim Logan's great grandchildren, to be sure. An easier way would be to find a different Harry Scroggs photo.
p.s. Cap-I've put my lists of top1912 "White Hope" heavyweights up before. I was wondering who your own top 25 would be FROM 1912. Also who would be the top two 1912 black heavyweights other then the Big Four? I'm guessing B.Jim Johnson and Jeff Clarke.
p.s.2 Cap- That Charles "Sailor" White boxing pose was lefty. lightweight contender from the same time Charley White was also a lefty. ???
p.s.3 Cap Was Jim Barry a black heavyweight, or a "White Hope" heavyweight?

I'll have to do some digging. I've heard that Jim Barry was mixed Irish and Ojibwa from the Great Lakes region. Also heard he was from Chicago. One photo I have of him sure seems to support the former theory. Seems to me he was sometimes regarded as a white hope. As for Sailor White I posted another picture of him sparring with an unidentified fighter I thought might be Jack McFarland. Should be in the Mods section.

Cap

[Cap]

A noted boxing historian, now deceased, rated the white hopes thusly: At the end of the year 1912:

Jess Willard
Bombadier Wells
Luther Mccarty
Gunboat Smith
Fireman Jim Flynn
Tony Ross
Porky Flynn
Al Palzer
Arthur Pelkey
Colin Bell
Jack Dillon
Al Kubiak
Tom Cowler
Denver Jack Geyer
John Willie
Sandy Ferguson
Frank Moran
Carl Morris
Jim Savage
Boer Rodel
Battling Levinsky
Sailor White
Bill Lang
Fred Storbeck
Soldier Kearns

It is a difficult task to rate their mediocrity. Win one lose two, win two lose one, draw, lose, lose, win, draw.....

Cap

That first photo showing White as a lefty might have been a reversed negative. The photo in Boxrec seems to show him as right-handed.

[bigMatt]

Interesting list Cap. To your comment I would add that it's difficult to rate mediocre fighters when all they do is fight each other as well. After all, if you beat a bad fighter, it only makes you less bad.

Of the group, I would have expected Dillon to rate the top. Actually, I would not even have put him on this list. While others were HW or LHW, Dillon was quite a bit smaller. Didn't he fight some solid matches against Harry Greb and Billy Miske?

A fellow from my home state, The Hoosier Bearcat was said to have been a pretty decent one in his time.