"Refuse minors assignment" only works for human players

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by atl_braves

Painmantle, Matt, I mistakenly thought that the human and AI "played by different rules" on this, and I recognize I was wrong on that. However, the point that OOTP allows teams to demote guys they shouldn't be able to is still intact.



Here's what I'm thinking: wouldn't it be a lot closer to reality if OOTP just made it so players with the right to refuse universally rejected demotions? The worst case scenario here is a Chris Capuano gets released when he would have accepted an assignment.

When you add the variable of players sometimes accepting demotions when they have the right to refuse, the worst case scenario is a HoFer playing out the last 3 years and $45MM of his contract in AAA.

Financially this could be a problem. Some players think they will get back to the active roster.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by Doc_Brown

Just tried to demote Ichiro to AAA and he's not having any of it. Which is fine if he was like that when the AI control Miami,but when it does Ichiro always ends up in AAA.

Hmmm

[Doc_Brown]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Hmmm

Some screenshots to show Ichiro refusing to go to AAA for me and going to AAA for the AI. All settings are as the game comes.

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Financially this could be a problem. Some players think they will get back to the active roster.

In what way? I don't envision CPU teams releasing so many players that it becomes problematic when I haven't seen them release a single one at this point.

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Some players think they will get back to the active roster.

So they should exercise their right to stay on the 25-man roster.

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by Doc_Brown

Some screenshots to show Ichiro refusing to go to AAA for me and going to AAA for the AI. All settings are as the game comes.

Seeing Ichiro getting demoted in a QuickStart game was probably the catalyst that got me paying attention to this. Any reason why a player in that situation (tail end of career with MLB contract) would entertain accepting a demotion?

[Doc_Brown]

Originally Posted by atl_braves

Seeing Ichiro getting demoted in a QuickStart game was probably the catalyst that got me paying attention to this. Any reason why a player in that situation (tail end of career with MLB contract) would entertain accepting a demotion?

No idea. I mean he's pretty close to 3,000 hits. I'm sure if the Marlins tried to get him off the MLB roster, he'd leave and catch on with another team to try and get to 3,000. I'm sure a team or 2 would be interested to sign him so they could make a few more bucks in his pursuit of 3,000.

[Le Grande Orange]

Much as with minor league transactions (actually, especially minor league transactions), I would say—again—that comprehensive reference data is invaluable here. It would provide proper transaction data to which one could refer for frequencies of the different types of transactions.

I've started once more an effort to procure the raw minor league transaction data, which is available on a league-by-league basis at MILB.com starting from April of 2009—that's seven full seasons' worth of data currently (eight after the 2016 season is concluded).

MLB.com has major league transaction data going all the way back to 2001, though the formatting of it changes starting in April of 2009. (This format change puts the info into a more convenient structure.)

[atl_braves]

Originally Posted by Doc_Brown

No idea. I mean he's pretty close to 3,000 hits. I'm sure if the Marlins tried to get him off the MLB roster, he'd leave and catch on with another team to try and get to 3,000. I'm sure a team or 2 would be interested to sign him so they could make a few more bucks in his pursuit of 3,000.

I meant to imply it with my rhetorical question, but you said it yourself: No! No way he does.

[SirMichaelJordan]

Originally Posted by Matt Arnold

The AI teams do pay attention to this. They try not to demote guys who would refuse an assignment, but if they do, they should get DFA/released as expected.

You can argue about which guys should refuse assignments or not, and I know we're not 100% accurate on the rules. But the AI does play by the same rules you do.

Originally Posted by Doc_Brown

Some screenshots to show Ichiro refusing to go to AAA for me and going to AAA for the AI. All settings are as the game comes.

Possible bug?

[r0nster]

Would think to keep him with being close to 3,000 hits and that would increase fan excitement plus fannies in the seats meaning more money rolling in. However I haven't noticed anything to that accord as far as more attendance or not as the buildup occurs.

[Matt Arnold]

Originally Posted by SirMichaelJordan

Possible bug?

Quite possibly. I double checked through the code and certainly AI teams should be fully paying attention to refuse to demote wishes, but it's possible there's either a hole in the logic somewhere, or something else might have happened to cause him to get there.

[dcd111]

Originally Posted by Ron.

Whether or not it ever happens in reality, it obviously happens way too often in OOTP. I just looked through my Hall of Fame--literally every single member who has retired during my sim spent at least half of their last contract year in the minors (not counting minor league contracts they often signed afterwards, which is a different issue). For many this was multiple years. Albert Pujols spent the last three years of his contract in AAA.

I'm sure you can go through your sims and look at just about any retired player and find that they were buried in the minors at the end of their career.

This has always bothered me about OOTP, although it isn't a critical problem it just seems wrong, especially for the Hall of Famers. I think the problem to some extent is that there isn't a lot of career perspective on the part of the player AI in this game. There's resistance to a minors assignment when a star player's ratings still seem major-league level, but as they get older and their ratings drop they see themselves as minor leaguers and stop resisting. A player with 500 home runs is not going to the minors, no matter how far his abilities have fallen.

This also has unrealistic results for how long-time stars end their major league careers. Hall of Fame players often hang on and sign low salary contracts for three or four years with three or four different teams at the end of their careers. I understand that some real-life stars become bench filler for awhile at the end of their careers, or try to jumpstart a flagging career by switching teams, but when the all-time home run king who played fifteen seasons with one team decides to play for three other teams in his last three seasons for near-minimum salary hitting three or four home runs per year (and then plays a year and a half in the minors), it bothers me.

Perhaps some perspective based on career earnings (or career WAR), or something along those lines, could influence a player's decisions at the end of their career.

[fcabanski]

How about a perspective on milestones and popularity?

[PSUColonel]

I would say some sort of formula involving career WAR, popularity, contract and whatever else that's good someone else may suggest.

[bwburke94]

While we're talking about this, there's a related issue: even if the right to refuse is disabled, OOTP allows players who have cleared waivers to refuse removal from the 40-man roster.

A human team can get around this by DFAing and immediately outrighting the player, but an AI team might not think to do this.

[NotMuchTime]

Originally Posted by dcd111

This has always bothered me about OOTP, although it isn't a critical problem it just seems wrong, especially for the Hall of Famers. I think the problem to some extent is that there isn't a lot of career perspective on the part of the player AI in this game. There's resistance to a minors assignment when a star player's ratings still seem major-league level, but as they get older and their ratings drop they see themselves as minor leaguers and stop resisting. A player with 500 home runs is not going to the minors, no matter how far his abilities have fallen.

This also has unrealistic results for how long-time stars end their major league careers. Hall of Fame players often hang on and sign low salary contracts for three or four years with three or four different teams at the end of their careers. I understand that some real-life stars become bench filler for awhile at the end of their careers, or try to jumpstart a flagging career by switching teams, but when the all-time home run king who played fifteen seasons with one team decides to play for three other teams in his last three seasons for near-minimum salary hitting three or four home runs per year (and then plays a year and a half in the minors), it bothers me.

Perhaps some perspective based on career earnings (or career WAR), or something along those lines, could influence a player's decisions at the end of their career.

This^

Also, I can't imagine any GM that would ask a potential HOFer to take a demotion. That GM would never be able to sign a decent free agent again.

[NCBeachBum]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Uh, the right to refuse any assignment to the minors (outright or optional) starts with five years of major league service, not ten.

Ah, mixing it up with 10-5 no-trades.

Still, wouldn't that test work?

[PSUColonel]

has this been looked into...was able to send down Ryan Howard to AAA