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Old 11-10-2017, 02:45 PM   #1
micpringle
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Question Well balanced offers

Why is it that trades where the scout appraisal states "a well balanced offer" are seemingly never accepted?

I appreciate that something that's well balanced might not be as appealing to the other GM as something that more heavily benefits them, but I imagine a fair amount of trades in real life are considered "well balanced".

Is it something to do with scouting ability? Although, I do have pretty good scouts and since I can't select which scout provides the appraisal I assume the game selects either the best, or the average?

Last edited by Adam B; 11-16-2017 at 03:32 PM.
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Old 11-10-2017, 03:16 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micpringle View Post
Why is it that trades where the scout appraisal states "a well balanced offer" are seemingly never accepted?

I appreciate that something that's well balanced might not be as appealing to the other GM as something that more heavily benefits them, but I imagine a fair amount of trades in real life are considered "well balanced".

Is it something to do with scouting ability? Although, I do have pretty good scouts and since I can't select which scout provides the appraisal I assume the game selects either the best, or the average?
Just a guess, and i don't know if this is the case...

Just because a offer is fair, doesn't mean the other party, computer or whatever, wants to make that move...
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Old 11-10-2017, 03:28 PM   #3
micpringle
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Originally Posted by George_Bell View Post
Just because a offer is fair, doesn't mean the other party, computer or whatever, wants to make that move...
I did elude to the same idea in my original post...

Quote:
I appreciate that something that's well balanced might not be as appealing to the other GM as something that more heavily benefits them
However, I have never had a well balanced offer accepted which is why I came on to ask if there were any other variables I wasn't considering, i.e. the scout(s) getting their appraisal wrong.

For example, I've attempted many a trade where the player I'm trading for is listed on the other teams Trading Block, and the player I'm offering is of a similar ability and plays in the position the other team has a weakness in, so even though the scout appraisal says it's well balanced, it is in both teams favour to make the trade happen—but I always end up having to offer a low round pick as well to get it over the line.

Last edited by micpringle; 11-10-2017 at 03:50 PM.
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Old 11-10-2017, 05:00 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by micpringle View Post
I did elude to the same idea in my original post...


However, I have never had a well balanced offer accepted which is why I came on to ask if there were any other variables I wasn't considering, i.e. the scout(s) getting their appraisal wrong.

For example, I've attempted many a trade where the player I'm trading for is listed on the other teams Trading Block, and the player I'm offering is of a similar ability and plays in the position the other team has a weakness in, so even though the scout appraisal says it's well balanced, it is in both teams favour to make the trade happen—but I always end up having to offer a low round pick as well to get it over the line.
Just because you deem it as fair (and you scouts deem it as fair) doesn't mean that the AI sees it that way. That being said, balanced does work. I have trades go through often with it.

You've offering similar skill set, what about contract? Age of player? All of these are calculated in it. What's your GM's trade level at as well? The higher your trade level, the more easy it is to convince other GMs it's a good move for everyone involved.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:45 AM   #5
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I always attempt to offer a player with a similar contract if possible, but if a team is close or over their cap then I might offer to take a high earner in exchange for a low one, and vice-versa.

All my players are under 30 except 1, and when trading I always stick within the same age range.

Where can I find my GM trade level? I did choose the wheeler-dealer template when starting the game, but can't remember if I boosted that attribute at the end of the previous season.
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Old 11-11-2017, 11:36 AM   #6
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I'm in the same boat on this. a Balanced Trade is always returned as being an outrageous offer, but when I get told, we're offering too much I get back "Hurry up and accept this before we change our minds"

Kinda odd, as i'm usually offering more than they deserve
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Old 11-11-2017, 01:46 PM   #7
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I'm curious on the trading that people are having a problem with. Are you offering something that the team needs? Are you offering to their weakness and the players you are getting back, are you taking from a strength? There is a lot of factors that could cause a well balanced trade to be rejected.

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Old 11-11-2017, 03:03 PM   #8
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I think I've answered most of these questions above...

Quote:
I've attempted many a trade where the player I'm trading for is listed on the other teams Trading Block, and the player I'm offering is of a similar ability and plays in the position the other team has a weakness in
Here's how I might put together a typical trade offer...

I identify a weakness in my team, perhaps through injury, so I head to the Trading Block to see if there are any players who might fill the gap. Usually I find at least one, but if I'm lucky I'll find more than one. I then go through each team that has a suitable player and see where their weaknesses lie, based on what my scouting team states. Next, I look through my roster to see if I have a player of similar quality, on a similar contract, that's within the age range of the player I've earmarked, and who plays in the position identified as their weakness.

If I find one, I'll create a trade for the two players, at which point my scout appraisal will likely state it's a balanced offer—this makes perfect sense, as the players are of comparable ability and value. But it also appears on the surface as a reasonable offer since I'm willing to take a player they've placed on the Trading Block (i.e. they would like to offload) for one that's plugs a gap they have in their own roster.

This is a typical trade that I never have accepted.

TBH it's got to the point now that if my scout appraisal states it's balanced I'll add a low pick just to bump the appraisal to likely be accepted. IMO there's little point waiting a couple of days to be told no, just to then add the pick and have to wait a couple more days until it's accepted.

Last edited by micpringle; 11-11-2017 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 11-11-2017, 06:57 PM   #9
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I have noticed that the teams only accept your deals if the coach says that "they'll probably accept this offer"
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Old 11-15-2017, 04:26 PM   #10
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Every one of these trade offers was deemed "well balanced" by my scout appraisal. Every one of these teams had a weakness at RD. The player I offered was a 2-star ability, 2.5 star potential RD in return for a middle pick (4 or 5) or the rights to an unsigned prospect with similar potential. The RD I offered has a cheap 2-way contract ($1m, $75k) and was winner of 2 AHL awards the previous season. Each of these teams has plenty of cap space.

I have 14 for negotiation as a GM.
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Old 11-15-2017, 08:56 PM   #11
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Trading is definitely the weakest part of this sim to me. The lack of a 'negotiation' or 'counteroffer', or 'Players that would make a trade work' button (which has been in their baseball sim for years)... Why are all the discussions one-way?
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:10 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by micpringle View Post
Attachment 528646

Every one of these trade offers was deemed "well balanced" by my scout appraisal. Every one of these teams had a weakness at RD. The player I offered was a 2-star ability, 2.5 star potential RD in return for a middle pick (4 or 5) or the rights to an unsigned prospect with similar potential. The RD I offered has a cheap 2-way contract ($1m, $75k) and was winner of 2 AHL awards the previous season. Each of these teams has plenty of cap space.

I have 14 for negotiation as a GM.
Without seeing every trade, it's hard to say. And a handful of trades doesn't mean much in a big picture. But you also have an issue because it's August. Teams are wanting premium returns before a season starts because it's all based on expectations. And I'll go back to what I said earlier:

Quote:
Just because you deem it as fair (and you scouts deem it as fair) doesn't mean that the AI sees it that way.

Try making some balanced offers at the trade deadline.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Viridel View Post
Trading is definitely the weakest part of this sim to me. The lack of a 'negotiation' or 'counteroffer', or 'Players that would make a trade work' button (which has been in their baseball sim for years)... Why are all the discussions one-way?
It's an area we are continuing to improve. Adding the Shop Player feature was big. But we want what works best for FHM, and not everything transfers well.
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Old 11-15-2017, 11:39 PM   #13
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Without seeing every trade, it's hard to say. And a handful of trades doesn't mean much in a big picture. But you also have an issue because it's August. Teams are wanting premium returns before a season starts because it's all based on expectations. And I'll go back to what I said earlier:
I am having the same problems, so I would imagine others are as well. I would say the sample size is probably quite large.

This needs to be looked at and fixed.
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Old 11-16-2017, 12:12 AM   #14
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I am having the same problems, so I would imagine others are as well. I would say the sample size is probably quite large.

This needs to be looked at and fixed.
https://youtu.be/8k33oGtSwHI?t=6m8s - From Last Friday's stream. 6 minutes in. Again, a lot of it is about when and how you offer.

Last edited by Adam B; 11-16-2017 at 12:52 AM.
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Old 11-16-2017, 01:40 PM   #15
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https://youtu.be/8k33oGtSwHI?t=6m8s - From Last Friday's stream. 6 minutes in. Again, a lot of it is about when and how you offer.
But there needs to be 2-way negotiations. That's the only way it can work. Baseball has had the "Players that make this trade work" button for at least 4-5 years... Why this is still missing from FHM is somewhat baffling. There is also clearly a mechanic that allows a team to generate a trade offer (the Shop Player function), so it really shouldn't be that difficult to work that into a counter-offer system.

I started a new custom league last night, fantasy drafted my entire franchise, and basically abandoned the whole thing after going thru the entire pre-season and the first two weeks of games with CONSTANT replies of "It's close, but we're not there yet" - which leads me to (figuratively) scream at my computer "SO WHAT THE HELL DO YOU WANT", and then not so figuratively quit the game.

Think about what the game is - FRANCHISE MANAGER. The first and single most important aspect to get right (after ratings) is roster management - which is at its most basic level, player acquisition.
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Old 11-16-2017, 02:55 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by Viridel View Post
But there needs to be 2-way negotiations. That's the only way it can work. Baseball has had the "Players that make this trade work" button for at least 4-5 years... Why this is still missing from FHM is somewhat baffling. There is also clearly a mechanic that allows a team to generate a trade offer (the Shop Player function), so it really shouldn't be that difficult to work that into a counter-offer system.

I started a new custom league last night, fantasy drafted my entire franchise, and basically abandoned the whole thing after going thru the entire pre-season and the first two weeks of games with CONSTANT replies of "It's close, but we're not there yet" - which leads me to (figuratively) scream at my computer "SO WHAT THE HELL DO YOU WANT", and then not so figuratively quit the game.

Think about what the game is - FRANCHISE MANAGER. The first and single most important aspect to get right (after ratings) is roster management - which is at its most basic level, player acquisition.
I don't want to rehash the same arguments, but I'm just going to state facts; (1) Although both games are development by OOTPD, they are different lead developers. (2) Although we do share information and see how things work, not everything can transfer easily. Both games are built entirely on different engines. One is for Baseball, one is for Hockey. You can't just transfer things. (3) OOTP is in it's 18 version. FHM4 is it's 4th.

I get some of your frustration, I do. And as I said, it's something we're building towards. But more often then not it's about sweetening the deal. When it's "close". Do small things. Turn that 5th round pick into a 4th. It's about adding a longshot prospect that maybe central scouting has a little higher than your scouts say.

Close is close. When you have "This offer has no basis for continued negotiations" - you know you're not even in the ballpark. Teams will also tell you when they don't want to move a player.
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Old 11-16-2017, 03:12 PM   #17
micpringle
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AFAIK there are 7 scout appraisal responses. The first group are those we know will never be accepted...
Quote:
They will never accept this offer!
It's hardly likely that they will accept this offer.
Maybe I am wrong, but I don't think that they will accept this offer.
The next group are those we know will always be accepted...
Quote:
I think that they will probably accept this offer.
It's very likely that they will accept this offer.
I'm sure that they will accept this offer.
I think we're offering way too much!
And then there's the outlier—the one we're discussing here, and the one that seems to cause the most confusion...
Quote:
I think this is a well balanced offer.
Now it seems, based on the discussions here, that there is some criteria that needs to be met in order for a well balanced offer to be accepted:
  1. Timing
  2. Weakness/Demand
  3. Cap space/Contract
  4. Ability/Potential
  5. GM Negotiation Attribute

This makes a ton of sense and is entirely fair, except for when you meet those criteria and the trade still isn't accepted, nor do you get any feedback from your scouts or the opposing GM as to why. Wouldn't it make more sense if say, the opposing GM replied with "No way! You offered a 5th pick, but we could make it work for a 4th".

In my example above, I feel I ticked every one of those boxes for each of the 6 teams—I'd have expected at least one to bite. And even though you say August isn't a good month for trades, I'm seeing trades go through pretty much every day. Wouldn't the offseason be considered one of the two most important periods for trades, with the other being trade deadline day? Plus, if they have a weakness, they have a weakness, so shouldn't they consider trades regardless of the timing?

What compounds the frustration is that this criteria doesn't appear to be applied consistently—if I offer a trade for a player the opposing team doesn't need, who plays in a position where they already have good depth, at any time when trades are allowed, for something really cheap like a 7th pick, the opposing GM will bite my hand off! But that breaks rules 1, 2, and 4.

For example, despite the Ducks having a weakness at RD I can offer them an ageing 2-star RW with a 3yr contract for a 7th pick and they'll take it even though they already have good depth and better players at RW...

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You might argue that there's still value in that trade because there's the possibility they can trade him again for a better pick, or a different player etc. but if I jump over to the FA screen there are several RWs of equal quality as the one I'm offering that they could sign for free and keep their 7th pick.

Last edited by micpringle; 11-16-2017 at 03:15 PM.
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Old 11-16-2017, 03:36 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by micpringle View Post
Attachment 528646

Every one of these trade offers was deemed "well balanced" by my scout appraisal. Every one of these teams had a weakness at RD. The player I offered was a 2-star ability, 2.5 star potential RD in return for a middle pick (4 or 5) or the rights to an unsigned prospect with similar potential. The RD I offered has a cheap 2-way contract ($1m, $75k) and was winner of 2 AHL awards the previous season. Each of these teams has plenty of cap space.

I have 14 for negotiation as a GM.
Salt the offers with late picks. Like a 5, 6 or 7th roundpick. It usually helps if their GM tells the deal is close.
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Old 11-16-2017, 03:50 PM   #19
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Salt the offers with late picks. Like a 5, 6 or 7th roundpick. It usually helps if their GM tells the deal is close.
This isn’t the problem, although I do appreciate the advice. If I throw in a low pick the scout appraisal will more than likely change to “I think that they will probably accept this offer.” at which point we know it’s a safe bet the trade will be accepted.

What we’re discussing here is that well balanced offers aren’t accepted, or at least in Adam’s case, rarely accepted.
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Old 11-16-2017, 05:11 PM   #20
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Close is close. When you have "This offer has no basis for continued negotiations" - you know you're not even in the ballpark. Teams will also tell you when they don't want to move a player.
So the fundamental deal was Kopitar for McKinnon, Gudbranson and Saros. The computer deemed this "I think this is a well balanced offer. "

Propose - Close but not there yet
Add 7th & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 6th & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 5th & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 4th & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 3rd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Add 7th to 3rd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 6th/3rd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 5th/3rd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 4th/3rd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 2nd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Add 7th to 2nd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 6th/2nd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 5th/2nd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 4th/2nd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Change to 3rd/2nd & Propose - Close but not there yet
Try 2/3/4 & Propose - Close but not there yet
Quit

So at this stage, having NO draft picks involved is 'Close', and having a 2nd AND 3rd AND 4th is still 'Close'... This isn't negotiation, this is pure blind guessing. Your contract system has the give-and-take negotiation ability, your Shop Player has 'negotiation' ability... But standard trading can't? You made the statement "Close is Close". I think we can agree based on the offers above - "Close" is an exceedingly broad term.

I get that I'm harping on something you've addressed as a problem, but sorry, saying that this is just the 4th season of FHM doesn't address something that is fundamentally and massively flawed (one-sided negotiations) - and frankly shouldn't still be an issue four versions later. Maybe instead of programming a team of 60 scouts to work the Lake Huron Pond Hockey Association - the core reason that (I would estimate) 95+% of us play this game is around player acquisition - so let's fix what matters?

Last edited by Viridel; 11-16-2017 at 05:13 PM.
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