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Old 11-20-2019, 08:20 AM   #1
nxsnexus
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Anticipation and adjustements on tactics

Hi!


First of all, I don't have a very good knowledge of hockey tactics and systems but I'm currently learning both on the ice and on FHM. On the ice, it's more or less easy to read what the oponent team is doing and try to focus on countering it. On FHM, at least to me, it's very hard to read what's happening and to adapt my tactics to try to counter the oponent team.


Maybe I got something wrong but most of the time, I see people advise to try changing stuff in the tactics while the game is paused. Resume and see if it's better. I didn't see yet a strong answer to explain why one would change one of the OZ attacking tactic over another because the oposite team use a very specific tactic.


So I would like to know if there is a way to find what would the next oposing team would most likely use as tactics, first. And then if there is a way to find out what tactics the oponent is using during a game to adjust yours.


I'm asking that because I won a lot of pre-seasons games (5 on 7 I think) but I'm losing everything in the refular season. I don't understand why because the roles I chose to each of my players seems to fit them nicely. Maybe my player's roles aren't fitting together on lines, I don't know...


Thanks for any answer!
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:32 PM   #2
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Minor adjustments are fine, but if you are flipping full-scale tactics, your team is going to punish you for it. No hockey team flips their entire tactical system game by game. Players need time to grow in a system.

As for you; it's tough to give diagnoses without seeing the stats specifically. Focus on your Offensive and Defensive Game Ratings to see where you're succeeding and failing. From there, make some corresponding moves. Don't be afraid to try and change the tempo of the game, or choose how often your players shoot.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:42 PM   #3
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Adam, out of interest, what sort of things would you adjust tactically and based off what stats?
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Old 11-20-2019, 06:40 PM   #4
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Adam, out of interest, what sort of things would you adjust tactically and based off what stats?
Again, I focus on Defensive Game Rating specifically and then possibly Offensive.

Defensively, make small adjustments, using Global changes like slowing down pace of play, or try passing more. If I'm not shooting enough, I turn that up as well. However if I don't really have a shooter on my lines, then it doesn't do much either right? (This is not to say you need a Sniper on every line, because you don't. But having 3 playmakers doesn't really help you shoot the puck).

But if your defense is suffering, look specifically at their stats. If you have a bunch of Offensive Defensemen and you're playing a system where it's more for Crease-clearing, that's not doing you any good either.
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:49 PM   #5
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Hello Adam and thank you for your answer.


I didn't realize that changing the whole tactics would affect so much the players but it makes a lot of sense. If I understand it, it means that the team has strenghts and weaknesses and I have to deal with it no matter what. If I want another tactics, either I spend a season trying to make them learn it the hard way, either I make some good trades on the long run. It also means that having players in a team shapes the team for a specific tactics and that some tactics works best with those players. So my job would be to find this tactic, use it properly and, finally, make some slight adjustements along the road to adapt to the oponent team.


All of this is very logical and it makes sense. But I'm a bit uncomfortable with this because I don't know much things about Ice Hockey yet. I don't know the players or the teams so it forbids me to a whole dimension of FHM. I will none the less try to do my best from now on with this new informations.


So I'm playing with the Vegas Golden Knights and did no trade at all. My lines look kinda like the real ones and I'm still looking into what tactics to apply to which line. If you have the patience, maybe I can write you down what I did, maybe try to explain why (when I tried to do something specific) and maybe you'll find some stuff that really doesn't work or that I shouldn't do at all. If that's right for you, I'll post it on another post after that.


Thanks again !
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Old 11-20-2019, 08:57 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by nxsnexus View Post
Hello Adam and thank you for your answer.


I didn't realize that changing the whole tactics would affect so much the players but it makes a lot of sense. If I understand it, it means that the team has strengths and weaknesses and I have to deal with it no matter what. If I want another tactics, either I spend a season trying to make them learn it the hard way, either I make some good trades on the long run. It also means that having players in a team shapes the team for a specific tactics and that some tactics works best with those players. So my job would be to find this tactic, use it properly and, finally, make some slight adjustments along the road to adapt to the opponent team.


All of this is very logical and it makes sense. But I'm a bit uncomfortable with this because I don't know much things about Ice Hockey yet. I don't know the players or the teams so it forbids me to a whole dimension of FHM. I will none the less try to do my best from now on with this new informations.


So I'm playing with the Vegas Golden Knights and did no trade at all. My lines look kinda like the real ones and I'm still looking into what tactics to apply to which line. If you have the patience, maybe I can write you down what I did, maybe try to explain why (when I tried to do something specific) and maybe you'll find some stuff that really doesn't work or that I shouldn't do at all. If that's right for you, I'll post it on another post after that.


Thanks again !
Every team has strengths and weaknesses, yes. It's just a fact of life. When you're playing an 82 game schedule, you don't have time to adjust tactically to an individual opponent like in Football or even to a small degree, baseball. It's a fast sport.

Remember, tactics are based on Player > Unit > Global. While it's fine to mess a bit with individual player tactics, Unit changes aren't great more than say once a year, but Global are changes you can make each game. Check your scouting reports on opposing goalies and change where your team is shooting. But find chemistry that works. You'll often see in real life coaches doing "line mixes" to try something new. Really, right now there's no better example than the Winnipeg Jets. They've been swapping lines basically due to injury but watching them play, individual players have taken on different roles in their new line combos which has been interesting to see. Whereas a player like Perrault has changed his game from a playmaker, he's now more an up and down winger. Or Kyle Connor going to more a Power Forward role when he's playing with Scheifele and Laine verus being a Perimeter Shoooter when he was with Wheeler and Scheifele.

I've said it before and will continue to say it: It's okay to continue to lean on your AI to set up Roles and Tactics, especially if you're not sure. I do it a lot still just to see what the AI thinks from time to time.
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Old 11-21-2019, 06:48 AM   #7
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Check your scouting reports on opposing goalies and change where your team is shooting
I don't understand what you meant by that. I've got scouts that I sent all over the world to find new talents but none of them is currently checking on the next opposite team/goalies since I don't know how to efficiently do it. I checked my scout report on the Sharks (my last oposing team) and I saw the big six categories (personality, current role, Strenghts, weaknesses, ability, potential) being updated by a scout. The next game is also against them. But on the goaly, I didn't saw any information related to where to shoot.

So I can change player's line, change a bit their role (probably trying to keep them in the same role category), should avoid to change any line tactics but can change global tactics a little against specific situations. Now, the lines tactics should override the global tactics, right? How does the global tactic can affect lines if each of the lines has its own line tactics?
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:14 AM   #8
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Originally Posted by Adam B View Post
Every team has strengths and weaknesses, yes. It's just a fact of life. When you're playing an 82 game schedule, you don't have time to adjust tactically to an individual opponent like in Football or even to a small degree, baseball. It's a fast sport.

Remember, tactics are based on Player > Unit > Global. While it's fine to mess a bit with individual player tactics, Unit changes aren't great more than say once a year, but Global are changes you can make each game. Check your scouting reports on opposing goalies and change where your team is shooting. But find chemistry that works. You'll often see in real life coaches doing "line mixes" to try something new. Really, right now there's no better example than the Winnipeg Jets. They've been swapping lines basically due to injury but watching them play, individual players have taken on different roles in their new line combos which has been interesting to see. Whereas a player like Perrault has changed his game from a playmaker, he's now more an up and down winger. Or Kyle Connor going to more a Power Forward role when he's playing with Scheifele and Laine verus being a Perimeter Shoooter when he was with Wheeler and Scheifele.
I have to kick in with my experience.
I never change global tactics. I set it once but I don't mess with them. I intensively work with my units' tactics. I found it makes an enormous difference. You said that it shouldn't be changed too much, but in my experience it's different. I actually change them quite often, accordingly to my opposition also often. When I see that things don't work, I change to more simple tactics. I found that playing against better teams, usually playing the stay in your lanes types of tactics does help a lot. As well as the "sagging the zone" setting, I find that it helps when you don't exactly know what to do (I guess it mymics IRL quite well as I intend this setting as "when in doubt, try to occupy more space as possible, hit when you can, and try to get your opposition off the slot").
I also try to go and change single-player settings. As you said, tempo, passing, and shooting are very important.
I understand that at first it's not easy to do something when you start losing games one after another, but YOU ARE LOSING GAMES, this means that keep on getting your team playing this way is wrong.
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:18 AM   #9
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This is a good thread, there's not enough clarity about the tactical element of the game for me, so this is very useful
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:51 AM   #10
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This is a good thread, there's not enough clarity about the tactical element of the game for me, so this is very useful
It may be challenging at first, but you will eventually learn. Usually the hard way, you need some time and some good losses. I think that it's mostly useful to play the simple way at first (stay in your lanes, strictly positional), and see how your team does. If things go well, micromanage, if things don't go well, intervene. Sometimes you also need some luck, but isn't it like that IRL?
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:23 AM   #11
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Hello Alessandro and thanks for you answer.

My main question after what you said is "how do you know?". How do you know what to play against your next oponent? If you change often accordingly to your oponent, then I must miss something because most of the time I don't know exactly what to do or what to change.

A quick example is my last game against San JosÚ Sharks. I lost 7-2, they had 45 shots while I've only got 21. That same composition (lines + tactics) wsa strictly the same than I've got un pre-season where I won almost all the games. I would love to understand why, make some analysis according to all the stats I've got but the thing is I don't know where to start with that.
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:37 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Alessandro View Post
I have to kick in with my experience.
I never change global tactics. I set it once but I don't mess with them. I intensively work with my units' tactics. I found it makes an enormous difference. You said that it shouldn't be changed too much, but in my experience it's different. I actually change them quite often, accordingly to my opposition also often. When I see that things don't work, I change to more simple tactics. I found that playing against better teams, usually playing the stay in your lanes types of tactics does help a lot. As well as the "sagging the zone" setting, I find that it helps when you don't exactly know what to do (I guess it mymics IRL quite well as I intend this setting as "when in doubt, try to occupy more space as possible, hit when you can, and try to get your opposition off the slot").
I also try to go and change single-player settings. As you said, tempo, passing, and shooting are very important.
I understand that at first it's not easy to do something when you start losing games one after another, but YOU ARE LOSING GAMES, this means that keep on getting your team playing this way is wrong.

I can echo this. I've had the most success having my teams play very defensively with the simplest tactics.

I'm curious how you play with the tempo settings. The game seems to suggest low tempo for slower guys who are bad puckhandlers and high tempo for guys that are more skilled. I've been setting it that way and leaving it. Any thoughts?
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Old 11-21-2019, 06:52 PM   #13
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My limited experience. So take it with a grain of salt. Line tactics get you close. But its the player tactics where I am seeing the greatest result from. Shots against have dropped tremendously. I was giving up 35+ a game. I would win but it just seemed like blind luck. Now Im at 30 or less the last 5 games. I really feel as if it was the player tactics that pushed me over the edge. 5 out of last 6 games, everybody on the defensive side as seen their game ratings go up.

Tempo to me I look at speed, acceleration and stamina.
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Old 11-22-2019, 04:49 AM   #14
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Hello Alessandro and thanks for you answer.

My main question after what you said is "how do you know?". How do you know what to play against your next oponent? If you change often accordingly to your oponent, then I must miss something because most of the time I don't know exactly what to do or what to change.

A quick example is my last game against San JosÚ Sharks. I lost 7-2, they had 45 shots while I've only got 21. That same composition (lines + tactics) wsa strictly the same than I've got un pre-season where I won almost all the games. I would love to understand why, make some analysis according to all the stats I've got but the thing is I don't know where to start with that.
Getting badly outshot is the first and most important signal that your tactics don't work - at least for the game. This is sometimes what I do: I rely and hope on good goaltending on the first part of the game, if in the first five minutes the shots are for example 10-0 in my opposition's advantage, then it's time to simple things up. Accordingly to the opposition, I either lower the tempo and try to be more aggressive with my bottom six. Then you have to deal with your roster, and I think that here the game makes a great job. In certain games,the opposition is just better and/or your team has some holes. For example, I have a strong top six and good offensive defensemen, but not so good on defense and on goaltending - that is that sometimes I manage to match well the tactics with the opposition, but I end up losing like 6-4.
As the above user said, players tactics are important, but I think they are easier to set. If you have Pavel Bure you put him high tempo, shooting, and not so high on pressure and backchecking. And so on. As a rule of thumb, forcing players to take on other roles isn't a good idea, but some players are more versatile than others.
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Old 11-22-2019, 04:54 AM   #15
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I can echo this. I've had the most success having my teams play very defensively with the simplest tactics.
It's just like it is IRL most of the times. We all love offensive hockey, but a tight defense and a hot goalie can go a long way. Just like IRL, if you have some big guys that can eat up room on the defensive zone, play organized, and your goalie is hot, even the most creative offense will have a hard time finding a hole to put the puck in. However, this is not how I play and this is not something I have explored much because I never had a roster that allowed for this kind of game.

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I'm curious how you play with the tempo settings. The game seems to suggest low tempo for slower guys who are bad puckhandlers and high tempo for guys that are more skilled. I've been setting it that way and leaving it. Any thoughts?
To a certain degree, in the game, like IRL, often simpler is better. I use high tempo only on the best lines and only if the player is fast. Or if I'm desperate for a late goal, but that usually doesn't work, again, just like IRL.
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Old 11-22-2019, 04:56 AM   #16
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To me the game as it is now provides a good balance. I understand that there isn't much information, but it wouldn't be so fun if you can just have a perfect match with your opposition. Maybe the game could give 10% more information, but not more.
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:17 PM   #17
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To me the game as it is now provides a good balance. I understand that there isn't much information, but it wouldn't be so fun if you can just have a perfect match with your opposition. Maybe the game could give 10% more information, but not more.
I see your point of view but will disagree from the perspective that without a 2D display, we count on what the current interface provides to know what we are "seeing" Right now, there is too much guessing. You are right that we don't want a perfect match but something as simple as telling us the formation the opponent is using would help paint a picture. With OOTP, it didn't matter early on when the interface was less advanced as baseball tactics require less adjustment than hockey tactics. The suggestions above are good but it is still guessing. With multiple variables to account for, guessing which one is causing your problem and just randomly trying different fixes takes away from immersion. Some feedback of what you are seeing from the assistant would go a long way to narrowing which variable(s) is causing the poor performance and make it actually feel like our in game adjustments are making a difference.
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Old 11-22-2019, 06:11 PM   #18
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I see your point of view but will disagree from the perspective that without a 2D display, we count on what the current interface provides to know what we are "seeing" Right now, there is too much guessing. You are right that we don't want a perfect match but something as simple as telling us the formation the opponent is using would help paint a picture.
Well, I somewhat agree, but if you get to know what formation the opponent is using, then it's a perfect match, since the description says that the tactic X is strong against Y and weak against Z

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With OOTP, it didn't matter early on when the interface was less advanced as baseball tactics require less adjustment than hockey tactics. The suggestions above are good but it is still guessing. With multiple variables to account for, guessing which one is causing your problem and just randomly trying different fixes takes away from immersion.
Again, I somewhat agree and I somewhat don't agree. I don't know much about baseball, though. I think that IRL the coaches do a lot of guessing, more than what we think. It happens often that a team underperforms, and not all the time does a coach know the exact recipe. Sometimes finding a good unit combination comes out of guessing. Maybe in the game it relies too much on guessing (but when you do the same thing more than once, and it works, maybe it's guessing the first time, then it's not guessing anymore), but you can't rule out guessing from the IRL circumstances.

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Some feedback of what you are seeing from the assistant would go a long way to narrowing which variable(s) is causing the poor performance and make it actually feel like our in game adjustments are making a difference.
Here I agree. The assistant should hint you someway into getting to understand a little bit more what it's working and what is not. Telling us why some players/units are doing good or small hints like "your lines are struggling, you may try to simple things up", or "we need a goal, perhaps upping our tempo may work", or "our opposition is outmuscling our lineup, we should try to play more on the perimeter", this kind of hints aren't too direct and can suggest you something to do. However, it's not easy to draw the line where you are hinting a bit or suggesting too much. Some FM games in the past were too easy for some players with a good knowledge of the game because it gave too much information. Like you could just set your tactic as your assistant told, and you'll win no matter what (well, almost). They had to completely rewrite the tactics and the playing the match out parts to fix this problem. I don't remember if it was the jump from FM 17 to FM 18, or from 18 to 19, but I guess you got the point.
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Old 11-24-2019, 10:39 AM   #19
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Hello!

I did my best in following your advice by putting each player first and using it how it's advised in the scouting screen. I also did a lot of tweaking in each unit's tactic and then setup a global tactic. Before that I lost 7-2 against the Sharks (They got 45 shots while I only got 21). My players GR was quite low, lower that I would expect from such players. After the new setup following you advice, I lost 5-2 against the Sharks but the interesting thing is that they had 29 shots while I got 35. If I try to interpret this results, I would say that I had overall better tactics offering more shots on goal and better defense but that the players were missing something. And I don't know what they're missing. During this second match, I also had a whole lot of PIM: 10 for my team (8 for the Sharks) while I had 6 in the first game (they got 4).

I chose to didn't setup tactics with a "stay in your lane" approach as Alessandro suggested for beginner but trying to use one of the best roles they could get while trying to keep a balanced set of roles per line. For instance, in my first line there is (from left to right, Forwards first) Marchessault as Perimeter shooter, Karlsson as Counterattacking forward, Stone as Backchecking Forward, Theodore as Mobile Defenseman and McNabb as Crease-Clearing Defenseman.

I still have very blurry points on how it works though. Like what's happening for unit tactics when all you players have individual setup and what happens to global tactics when all units have their own set of tactics. And I still don't know how to make my forwards shoot somewhere specifics on goal nor do I know how to scout my next oponent's team or goalie before the match (as Adam told me to).
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Old 11-24-2019, 11:20 AM   #20
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I didn't wanted to start some debate about 2D visualization of a game. But as a new fan of hockey and gameplay programmer, I'll give a quick opinion.

Having a 2D visualization of the games would be great, would probably attract more players but would take a whole lot of time to create from scratch. I feel that better feedbacks during games would be way better. Not 100% accurate feedbacks, but more like scouting. The more you see of the game, the more accurate your "intel" is. So that you can adapt.

The real bummer, for me, is the lack of opportunity to try to counter the opposing team. In the tactics screen, you know which one counter which other one but you never ever get the opportunity to use this info because you never know what other teams are doing. It would be only logical to watch other teams games and say "oh, they'r e using torpedo here, okay, okay... Maybe I will try to counter that during my next game against them". They can change their tactics for you... Or not. And here you have to guess and to quickly adapt during the game.

Guessing is a very important part of tactics. But it feels that, today, it's one of the main variables ruling the tactics when it comes to chose what to do against next oponent. I think that it shouldn't and even if IRL coaches have to guess, I'm quite sure they never goes for "oh, it's the Sharks... Okay, let's try this one tactic for them." but more make their decision regarding the team's games history in the current regular season and roster.

Today, with my Vegas Golden Knights, it feels like I can't do a thing to change my results besides trying something else in general and not trying something else for that next oponent. It feels terrible because I don't know how to fix this, currently. Just knowing that the oponent is playing Non-Physical and more on the offense is quite a shallow analysis of the opposing team, like we're not even trying to find anything at all to improve our tactics/game/behavior.

Don't take me wrong, I love the game with its qualities and its flaws. And it's because I love it that I'm trying my best to learn it, understand it, and make good decisions for my team... And also that's why I give my opinion.
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