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OOTP 19 - General Discussions Everything about the 2018 version of Out of the Park Baseball - officially licensed by MLB.com and the MLBPA. |
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01-23-2019, 05:31 PM | #1 |
Hall Of Famer
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Hall of Fame or nah?
I posted this yesterday in my dynasty thread after I noticed Jonny Toner retired, but for this one time I am looking for some broader feedback. The first thought I had was sadness, the second was "but what about the Hall of Fame"?
In traditional sense, he likely won't get in. Not even 200 wins! What a weakling. However, that does not tell half the story. He was Pitcher of the Year four times in a frankly insane 8-year peak during which he was hands down the best pitcher in either subleague. He was the ultimate excitement. He would sneeze mid-windup and the batter would still strike out. Nobody had a whiff on the strikeout crown… unless arm woes curtailed his season. He won two triple crowns, and he could have won more if the mid-2010s Raccoons hadn't been… consistently able to put a winning package together thanks to some braindead GM making a few numb moves *despite* having, at first, Toner paired with then-rapidly-aging future Hall of Famer Nick Brown atop the rotation, then later a trio of aces in the rotation for a number of years (and none of them aged well). And then at 30 he literally came apart. Defense had a hand in that 3.51 ERA, but even then the writing was on the wall. He would come even close to a qualifying amount of innings only once more in his career. It was always more injuries and even more injuries after that. That year after he became a free agent I was close to resigning him but ultimately bailed on the price tag because he would spend half the season on the DL and the Raccoons were continuously cash-strapped. The Crusaders had cash coming out of every body opening, and they didn't mind. They got 60 superficially decent innings with lots of red flags. From there, Toner tingled through all the terrible teams that would take a flyer on him. That was already sad to see… And now he is retired and will be on the ballot in a few years, and I come back to the original question: Hall of Fame or nah? I tend towards nodding him in because his peak was so blindingly stellar. But maybe my view is distorted because I did some 2k fist pumps whenever he rung up another sucker daring to try to breath the same air as Jonny. But... best pitcher of the decade, hands down! You would not hold the injuries against him, would you? Well, would you?
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Portland Raccoons, 83 years of excell-.... of baseball: Furballs here! 1983 * 1989 * 1991 * 1992 * 1993 * 1995 * 1996 * 2010 * 2017 * 2018 * 2019 * 2026 * 2028 * 2035 * 2037 * 2044 * 2045 * 2046 * 2047 * 2048 * 2051 * 2054 * 2055 1 OSANAI : 2 POWELL : 7 NOMURA | RAMOS : 8 REECE : 10 BROWN : 15 HALL : 27 FERNANDEZ : 28 CASAS : 31 CARMONA : 32 WEST : 39 TONER : 46 SAITO Resident Mets Cynic - The Mets from 1962 onwards, here. |
01-23-2019, 05:42 PM | #2 |
OOTP Developer
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I vote yes. His metrics are just about all above HOF average in your universe, and that 8-year peak of his was certainly something.
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01-23-2019, 06:27 PM | #3 |
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yep. look like a HOFer to me. those 8 years are insane.
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"This is my opening farewell " - Jackson Browne “They make a desolation and call it peace.” ― Agha Shahid Ali "Maybe she just has to sing, for the sake of the song - And who do I think that I am to decide that she's wrong." - Townes Van Zandt "I saw a young man leaning on his wooden crutch - He called out to me, 'Don't ask for so much' And a young woman leaning in her darkened door She cried out to me, 'Why not ask for more?' " - Leonard Cohen "Hello darkness, my old Friend ...." - Paul Simon Before Mays, before DiMaggio, there was Oscar Charleston. "All the lies about Babe Ruth are true." - Waite Hoyt Avatar is the late great Townes Van Zandt. rip. |
01-23-2019, 06:33 PM | #4 |
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I vote yes.
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01-23-2019, 06:36 PM | #5 |
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Posts: 3,291
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A reluctant yes from me. I like to see a little more longevity from starting pitchers' careers, but he was probably one of the top 2-3 guys in the game for about eight years, so I'll say yes.
Just curious, did he get hurt in 2022? |
01-23-2019, 07:06 PM | #6 |
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Those 2 silver sluggers put it over the top for me, I'm gonna have to say yes.
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01-23-2019, 07:40 PM | #7 |
Minors (Single A)
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 66
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Definite yes.
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01-23-2019, 09:01 PM | #8 |
Hall Of Famer
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Meh. He's basically Dwight Gooden/Orel Hershiser/Johan Santana - all guys who had outstanding years and who could be considered the top pitchers when they were at their peak, but who couldn't string together enough of those years to have a HOF-worthy career.
On the other hand, it appears that your HOF has an open admission policy, so I say let him in. |
01-24-2019, 01:15 AM | #9 | |||
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Yay, opinions. Thx!
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My HOF has about the same number of players than the MLB version (accounting for league age and size). Part of the problem might be that OOTP gives a lot of weight to the player's ballot (up to 25-30% I surmise from keen observation) and since I usually file a (nearly) full ballot, a lot of guys get inducted. Are there some players in there that would probably not belong? Definitely! I f.e. willed my former awesome CF Neil Reece who could never stay healthy and fell just short of even 2,000 hits into the HOF by my power ballot (took a few years, though), and, well, I am usually able to fill my ballot just by going through the nominees, one by one, and every single one makes me say "wow, he killed us year after year! And HE killed us year after year! Oh, and THAT GUY …!"
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Portland Raccoons, 83 years of excell-.... of baseball: Furballs here! 1983 * 1989 * 1991 * 1992 * 1993 * 1995 * 1996 * 2010 * 2017 * 2018 * 2019 * 2026 * 2028 * 2035 * 2037 * 2044 * 2045 * 2046 * 2047 * 2048 * 2051 * 2054 * 2055 1 OSANAI : 2 POWELL : 7 NOMURA | RAMOS : 8 REECE : 10 BROWN : 15 HALL : 27 FERNANDEZ : 28 CASAS : 31 CARMONA : 32 WEST : 39 TONER : 46 SAITO Resident Mets Cynic - The Mets from 1962 onwards, here. |
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01-24-2019, 08:30 AM | #10 |
Minors (Triple A)
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Without a doubt I say he belongs. As far as his 2 injury years in that 8 year span, they were certainly still very productive. In 2016 he managed a 150 ERA+ and a 5.1 WAR. In 2019 he had a 174 ERA+ and a 4.6 WAR. So even with those 2 "injury marred" years he still showed excellence. He deserves that HOF beside his name!
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01-24-2019, 01:57 PM | #11 |
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No for me but I'm a very small hall guy.
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01-24-2019, 07:09 PM | #12 | |
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Also, your guy has a 152 ERA+. Of the top 100 RL SP in JAWS (counting stat that is a quick and dirty way to measure the quality of a pitcher), there are two pitchers with an ERA+ at 150 or above. Clayton Kershaw (159), and Pedro Martinez (154). That's it. He certainly had a brief career, but he had an awesome peak. Based on that, I say put him in. I'd also say that your average HoF JAWS score is a bit low at 50. That should probably be more like your floor for HoF induction. There are 18 RL HoFers below 50 JAWS: Early Wynn (49.8), Sandy Koufax (47.5), Burleigh Grimes (46.9), Whitey Ford (45.8), Dizzy Dean (44.6), Eppa Rixey (44.5), Bob Lemon (43.5), Waite Hoyt (43.1), Addie Joss (41.5), Jack Chesbro (41.3), Chief Bender (40.9), Herb Pennock (40.5), Jack Morris (38.3), Catfish Hunter (38.1), Lefty Gomez (37.1), Candy Cummings (in as Pioneer/Executive: 36.2), Rube Marquard (30.9), and Jesse Haines (27.2). Wynn, Koufax, Grimes and Ford would need further consideration, but I don't see the others, so 50 JAWS would probably make for a decent entry level/borderline. I'd say 55 and above should probably go in. 45 and below should not, and between 45 and 55 you're gonna have to put your thinking cap on and separate the wheat from the chaff. Just a rough, general guideline of course. It's your game. Do what you think is right.
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01-24-2019, 10:30 PM | #13 |
All Star Reserve
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As an avid reader of your dynasty I'm very upset that you didnt sign him to a minor league deal and have him retire a Raccoon.
Last edited by UltimateAverageGuy; 01-24-2019 at 10:46 PM. |
01-24-2019, 10:58 PM | #14 |
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01-24-2019, 11:01 PM | #15 |
Minors (Triple A)
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Yes for me - & I'm more of a small - mid size hall guy.
For me, if you are one of the top 4-5 starting pitchers in the league for 4-5 years, or top 2-3 players at your position for 4-5 years, you are a hall of famer. Really, if you look at players by position, with some people having career years, ups/downs, etc, there really are not very many who are consistently amongst the 'best' at their position for that many years. |
01-24-2019, 11:04 PM | #16 |
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Toner was very Koufax-ian hes absolutely a HOF'er
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01-24-2019, 11:17 PM | #17 |
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Exactly what I was thinking. An eight year peak to Koufax' six, though Koufax' peak was more spectacular.
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My corrected FaceGen IDs .zip file here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1oRd...usp=share_link OOTP post re-FG IDs here: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...postcount=3198 My DB which restores Fed Leaguers here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZoN...B2GCcULxt/view Instructions for the DB: https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...07&postcount=9 |
01-24-2019, 11:37 PM | #18 |
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Looks like one to me.
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Richie Renard: Come on Bobby! Hit a Home Run! Gil Renard: Don't get greedy, son. Don't get greedy. What we need now is a sacrifice. A winning team has to know how to manufacture runs. Coop taught me that. He used to say the most beautiful play in the game is a sacrifice fly, and you know why? Richie Renard: 'Cause you give yourself up for the team? Gil Renard: And it doesn't even count against your average. That's why baseball's better than life - it's fair. |
01-25-2019, 12:31 AM | #19 | |
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Reading the OP was giving me all kinds of Koufax vibes so I went to Koufax's stats page to find: 165-87, 2324.1 IP, 2.76 ERA, 9.28 K/9, 3.16 BB/9, 54.5 fWAR Pretty strikingly similar to your man Toner, down to the massive peak and arm troubles. |
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01-25-2019, 01:17 AM | #20 |
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Toner seems rather like newly inducted HOFer Roy Halladay, whose career numbers aren't terrific but who was a dominating pitcher for a nine or ten year stretch.
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