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Old 07-28-2019, 09:37 PM   #21
Situational_Lefty
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drstrangelove View Post
I agree. We'd need more data. A small change in one default setting could drive this. Stamina, pitcher usage, what season (era) this was in, rotation size, etc.
The settings I used where just the default settings provided when starting up a 2019 MLB standard league. The only change I made was turning off the opener/follower setting. I made no alterations to any other settings.


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Old 07-29-2019, 12:16 AM   #22
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The fact that you ran a whole season and came up with an average of over 1.2 inning per outing is concerning to me. I would guess that the current MLB average outing for relievers is less than an inning. There is a reason that the commissioner is considering implementing a rule to make it that relievers have to pitch to at least three batters.
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Old 07-29-2019, 04:03 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
The fact that you ran a whole season and came up with an average of over 1.2 inning per outing is concerning to me. I would guess that the current MLB average outing for relievers is less than an inning. There is a reason that the commissioner is considering implementing a rule to make it that relievers have to pitch to at least three batters.

I posted the 2016 numbers for relievers. It's not under 1 inning, it's slightly over 1 inning. (The same in 2019, and 2018, and probably forever, although I'm sure it's at higher averages as you go back in time.)

You can find actual numbers like this.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...g=NL&year=2018

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Old 07-29-2019, 04:10 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by Situational_Lefty View Post
The settings I used where just the default settings provided when starting up a 2019 MLB standard league. The only change I made was turning off the opener/follower setting. I made no alterations to any other settings.
But those settings (for hooking starters and relievers) aren't what I use. (I use default.) Maybe that's the difference, if there's a real difference.

Also, is it supposed to say 24 players, but a limit of 25? It looks like there are just 12 position players, where in my league there are 13. Would that not cause relievers to pitch longer per outing, as well.

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Old 07-29-2019, 08:59 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drstrangelove View Post
I posted the 2016 numbers for relievers. It's not under 1 inning, it's slightly over 1 inning. (The same in 2019, and 2018, and probably forever, although I'm sure it's at higher averages as you go back in time.)

You can find actual numbers like this.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/l...g=NL&year=2018
OK. I looked back at the thread and can't find where you posted those numbers. And the link you provided me doesn't help unless you know the stats for followers so we can back that out.
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Old 07-29-2019, 03:13 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
OK. I looked back at the thread and can't find where you posted those numbers. And the link you provided me doesn't help unless you know the stats for followers so we can back that out.
1) Post 11 and post 13 state the games and innings for MLB relievers in 2016.

2) This is data from that source:

MLB Relievers

2018 games 16,339
2018 IP 17,422
IP per game 1.066

2016 games 15,306
2008 IP 15,893
IP per game 1.039

2008 games 14,156
2008 IP 15,159
IP per game 1.071


Innings pitched per relief appearance is lower in 2018 than it was in 2008. It's apparent that the amount of innings and amount of appearances is related to the use of openers, but regardless of why it's so, relievers in MLB do not (did not) average under 1 inning per appearance.

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Old 07-29-2019, 05:30 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drstrangelove View Post
relievers in MLB do not (did not) average under 1 inning per appearance.
This is not a true statement until the numbers for followers are backed out and the number run again. A follower is not a reliever in the traditional sense and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise. Do you think when we investigate the average length of a start in MLB we should include "openers" in that result? Of course not. I stand by my "guess" that the average relief appearance in current MLB, not including followers, is one inning or less.
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:13 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
This is not a true statement until the numbers for followers are backed out and the number run again. A follower is not a reliever in the traditional sense and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise. Do you think when we investigate the average length of a start in MLB we should include "openers" in that result? Of course not. I stand by my "guess" that the average relief appearance in current MLB, not including followers, is one inning or less.
I'm curious though: some of the numbers provided by Drstrangelove were from 2016. Was the use of the opener and follower common enough in 2016 to throw off the numbers that much? I was under the impression that 2018 was the year that marked a significant occurrence of this practice.
But I am having a hard time finding the numbers on this for 2016 so this is a question not a statement. I really don't know the answer to this.
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Old 07-29-2019, 07:46 PM   #29
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I'm curious though: some of the numbers provided by Drstrangelove were from 2016. Was the use of the opener and follower common enough in 2016 to throw off the numbers that much? I was under the impression that 2018 was the year that marked a significant occurrence of this practice.
But I am having a hard time finding the numbers on this for 2016 so this is a question not a statement. I really don't know the answer to this.
Yes and the numbers were dropping until after 2016, probably because of followers. I expect that the trend it was following actually did continue and the average relief outing in 2018, with followers not included, is probably at 1.0 IP/rApp +/- 5%. That means that if the OP is getting an average above 1.2 IP/rApp for his save using default settings then the implication is that there is a problem with those settings. Dr. Strangelove seemed to be getting results closer to what one would expect but I'm not sure if they both used the same settings.
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Old 07-29-2019, 10:39 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Dyzalot View Post
This is not a true statement until the numbers for followers are backed out and the number run again. A follower is not a reliever in the traditional sense and it is disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
I'm using the definition of "reliever" as defined by MLB, by BBRef, and Elias Sports.


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Old 07-29-2019, 11:09 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Drstrangelove View Post
But those settings (for hooking starters and relievers) aren't what I use. (I use default.) Maybe that's the difference, if there's a real difference.

Also, is it supposed to say 24 players, but a limit of 25? It looks like there are just 12 position players, where in my league there are 13. Would that not cause relievers to pitch longer per outing, as well.
Those settings for starter and reliever hook were the ones that were there by default in the Standard Game I started. That is one of the reasons I posted was to see if people might have suggestions of hook settings that work well for them in a modern MLB set up.

In regards to the 12 position players, that allows for a team to either have 12 or 13 pitchers on their roster, which is much more common in today's game. If larger bullpen should allow for shorter outings for relievers than longer ones due to the depth.
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Old 07-30-2019, 03:06 AM   #32
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I'm using the definition of "reliever" as defined by MLB, by BBRef, and Elias Sports.


And I'm done here. Cheers.
You can do that but since the OOTP AI engine doesn't treat a "follower" as a reliever, I think it makes for an unfair comparison. I don't have a problem with followers going more than one inning. That was never the argument so to include them is to "muddy the waters" so to speak.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:39 AM   #33
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Those settings for starter and reliever hook were the ones that were there by default in the Standard Game I started.
I agree. They are what's there at the start of a standard game, but if you use the drop down box, you'll see, that those settings are not listed as default. Why it starts that way is beyond my knowledge, but it might be a big difference.
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Old 07-30-2019, 11:55 AM   #34
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I agree. They are what's there at the start of a standard game, but if you use the drop down box, you'll see, that those settings are not listed as default. Why it starts that way is beyond my knowledge, but it might be a big difference.
Nothing is listed as "default" in the drop down. I don't understand your point. Those settings are literally by default, the default settings.
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Old 07-30-2019, 12:10 PM   #35
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Nothing is listed as "default" in the drop down. I don't understand your point. Those settings are literally by default, the default settings.
Well, I see it in my version of 20. And its in my 19 as well.
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Old 07-30-2019, 07:54 PM   #36
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Yes but if the game doesn't default to those settings at creation then they aren't the default settings, regardless of their label.
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Old 07-31-2019, 01:11 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by Drstrangelove View Post
I agree. They are what's there at the start of a standard game, but if you use the drop down box, you'll see, that those settings are not listed as default. Why it starts that way is beyond my knowledge, but it might be a big difference.

Thanks for the input. I noticed that looked a bit strange. Have you had decent results with setting it too default for both hook settings?
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Old 07-31-2019, 05:04 AM   #38
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Thanks for the input. I noticed that looked a bit strange. Have you had decent results with setting it too default for both hook settings?
My default settings have worked well (at least in terms of averages.) I was slightly closer than your stats, but the difference is small. (Around .2 innings per appearance.) From your post regarding number of starters with 200+ IP, I think the +2 starter hook might be an area to test. (I also had 15-20 pitchers each season with 200+ IP, with default settings, not just a handful.) That might be worth a look.

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Old 07-31-2019, 10:29 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Drstrangelove View Post
My default settings have worked well (at least in terms of averages.) I was slightly closer than your stats, but the difference is small. (Around .2 innings per appearance.) From your post regarding number of starters with 200+ IP, I think the +2 starter hook might be an area to test. (I also had 15-20 pitchers each season with 200+ IP, with default settings, not just a handful.) That might be worth a look.
Alright, I am going to run some tests using settings based on the screenshot you provided. Hopefully they can provide some more realistic results, or at least get me closer to normal looking numbers.
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Old 08-10-2019, 03:43 PM   #40
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well, 2 historical leagues I'm in went way outta wack, I noticed entire rotations and even staffs exhausted in a 1996 league and the setting was +5 for SP and -2 for RP

My 1982 league changed to -2 SP and +1 for relievers

both were set to default previously, It only started happening recently, probably the last patch
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