Market Size movement?

[CurlyKarkovice]

Does market size ever change higher or lower?

Started in the '19 version, I've had a really successful dynasty for over 25 years in Challenge Mode with the White Sox (I actually ponied up the $$ for Machado to turn things around) and market size is stuck on "Below Average". Chicago is a huge market when the team is winning so I was curious if it will ever go up.

In comparison Cubs are Astronomical so does that effect the Southsiders size? But I noticed the "second teams" in big markets a large share without nearly the amount of winning as I have accomplished. Mets/Big, Angels/Huge. Even an expansion team in Indianapolis has Average size Lol.

Thanks!

[bestbrother]

Id love to know this as well, whether it be using real MLB teams or a custom league, do franchises have the potential to gain market size based on success or vice versa.

I understand its a bit different to football and I compare how teams can evolve (albeit slowly) in Football Manager, where their reputation increases nationally and then on the continent... which then also impacts their league reputation.

But id love to see teams have peaks and troughs for varying reasons.

[jimmysthebestcop]

what moves often is fan interest and sometimes fan loyalty. Fan interest is tied to your revenue.

If playing modern mlb market size almost never changes. I think it does change just extremely rare.

but honestly market size almost never changes in real life MLB. over the course of hundred years yes. just because cities themselves actually grew.

but all of a sudden Tampa Bay could never be a large market city. Its impossible. Even if they Won 3 world series in a row.

What really matters in OOTP is fan interest. The higher that is the more you will sellout. The more you sellout the more you can charge for tickets. The more you charge for tickets the more revenue you will get. The more playoff games you have the more revenue you make. Because you have a dozen extra home games.

[CurlyKarkovice]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

What really matters in OOTP is fan interest. The higher that is the more you will sellout. The more you sellout the more you can charge for tickets. The more you charge for tickets the more revenue you will get. The more playoff games you have the more revenue you make. Because you have a dozen extra home games.

Yes I should have specified, this is a real dynasty. Playoffs for 21 straight seasons and 12 World Series Championships. Fan interest has consistently been 90 or higher the last 20 years, 100 for a lot of them. Loyalty has bumped up and been Very Good for over a decade.

I wouldn't expect Tampa but this is Chicago. That's why I feel like there are other factors at play. And looking around my league here are head scratching market sizes with no rings in the dynasty compared to my "below average":

KC - Above Average
Indianapolis - Above Average
Minnesota - Above Average
Texas - Huge (never made the playoffs in this dynasty)


Maybe it will take 50 years of winning or it will never change because White Sox will always historically out weighed by the Cubs fans. And maybe I should move them to Portland.

[PSUColonel]

Here is what I have come up with for OOTP 20....I had already come out with a list, but finances in version 20 have been tweaked in the meantime, so this is my new list. I am considering moving Detroit from 5 to 6, but haven’t decided yet.


11: Yankees

10:

9: Dodgers, Cubs, Giants, Red Sox

8: Mets, Nationals, Angels, Phillies

7: Cardinals. Astros, Braves, Rangers

6: White Sox, Mariners, Blue Jays

5: Padres,Tigers, D-Backs, Orioles, Twins, Rockies

4: Pirates, Indians, Brewers, Athletics

3: Royals, Reds, Marlins, Rays

EDIT: note this list is based on a combination of team value according to Forbes, and actual Market size. So some teams like the Red Sox and Cardinals are ranked higher than their actual market size, and teams’ such as the White Sox and Blue Jays are lower.

[panda234]

I play mostly LAD in 19 and I've seen the market size increase as a result of team success. It leads to an increase in payroll!!

[CurlyKarkovice]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

Here is what I have come up with for OOTP 20....I had already come out with a list, but finances in version 20 have been tweaked in the meantime, so this is my new list. I am considering moving Detroit from 5 to 6, but haven’t decided yet.


11: Yankees

10:

9: Dodgers, Cubs, Giants, Red Sox

8: Mets, Nationals, Angels, Phillies

7: Cardinals. Astros, Braves, Rangers

6: White Sox, Mariners, Blue Jays

5: Padres,Tigers, D-Backs, Orioles, Twins, Rockies

4: Pirates, Indians, Brewers, Athletics

3: Royals, Reds, Marlins, Rays

EDIT: note this list is based on a combination of team value according to Forbes, and actual Market size. So some teams like the Red Sox and Cardinals are ranked higher than their actual market size, and teams’ such as the White Sox and Blue Jays are lower.

Very nice. I can't argue with this list. It seems my White Sox might hit an average market size but nothing more unless I'm destroying the competition for a century.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by CurlyKarkovice

Yes I should have specified, this is a real dynasty. Playoffs for 21 straight seasons and 12 World Series Championships. Fan interest has consistently been 90 or higher the last 20 years, 100 for a lot of them. Loyalty has bumped up and been Very Good for over a decade.

I wouldn't expect Tampa but this is Chicago. That's why I feel like there are other factors at play. And looking around my league here are head scratching market sizes with no rings in the dynasty compared to my "below average":

KC - Above Average
Indianapolis - Above Average
Minnesota - Above Average
Texas - Huge (never made the playoffs in this dynasty)


Maybe it will take 50 years of winning or it will never change because White Sox will always historically out weighed by the Cubs fans. And maybe I should move them to Portland.

In my 1 OOTP 19 universe they moved after 2018 to Columbus. The Columbus White Sox lol

[PSUColonel]

This also works:


10: Yankees

9: Dodgers, Cubs, Giants, Red Sox

8: Mets, Nationals, Angels, Phillies

7: Cardinals. Astros, Braves, Rangers

6: White Sox, Mariners, Blue Jays, D-Backs, Tigers

5: Padres, Orioles, Twins, Rockies

4: Pirates, Indians, Brewers, Athletics

3: Royals, Reds, Marlins, Rays

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by CurlyKarkovice

Very nice. I can't argue with this list. It seems my White Sox might hit an average market size but nothing more unless I'm destroying the competition for a century.

IF your fan interest is always high you can start charging more for tickets. In a Pirates sim in 19. I was charging as much as Yankees.

Budget rose to near 180 million from pretty far down the list. And 3 years out estimate was 200 million.

There market size is below average. Fan loyalty rose a little to Good I think from average or above average. But Fan interest I had pegged at 90+ for half dozen years.

That universe it was equal national tv contracts. If its not set to equal then market size comes into play.

But typically the biggest thing to increase revenue is your tickets. And that is controlled by fan interest.

Yes market size helps to sell tickets when your team isn't good. And can bring in more tv money if you have it selected. And it will have general higher revenue.

But you should be able to improve some teams.

I know in OOTP 19. With Oakland I was never able to keep fan interest up from 1 year to the next. I had a span of like 4 world series wins in a row. It was like the following year interest would just be back to 40-50.

But in my Pitt save it would have been 100 for winning the WS. So their are some funky cities. But if you can keep your interest 90+ from season to season hike those ticket prices.

Edit:
to give an example of tv money based on markey size in my A's universe. The A's got aroudn 30-40 million a year from TV but say Dodgers/Cubs/Yankees were pulling in around 140-150 million a year.

So that is where you can fall behind. But you try to make that difference up in gate revenue.

[CurlyKarkovice]

Originally Posted by jimmysthebestcop

In my 1 OOTP 19 universe they moved after 2018 to Columbus. The Columbus White Sox lol

Haha, awesome. First dynasty I played in the '19 release SD Padres moved to Austin Texas in 2020. They changed mascot to something weird like Penguins or Snowbirds Lol. Wouldn't move now with Machado that's for sure.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Originally Posted by CurlyKarkovice

Haha, awesome. First dynasty I played in the '19 release SD Padres moved to Austin Texas in 2020. They changed mascot to something weird like Penguins or Snowbirds Lol. Wouldn't move now with Machado that's for sure.

Well they actually renamed them the Tomcats. But I don't like that it defaults to changing team name because location has changed. I mean it extremely rare for a team to change names just because it changed cities.

So I renamed them back to the White Sox. But I had some random modern looking white sox logo in my logo directory so I used that version to signify that the team "moved". It also changed their colors slightly as I think it had this really pale blue in the logo.

In 2024 the Miami Marlins moved to Jacksonville to become the Gladiators. I thought was cool so I left it just updated their logo.

That move really improved their market size as I guess Jacksonville is a lot bigger market then Miami.

But I still couldn't believe that it picked another city in Florida. Like what are the odds. Owner was like nope we are moving about 400 miles up I95 lol.

[NoOne]

market size can definitely change both ways.

i absolutely wrecked my 10-team division for nearly 2 centuries... nearly all are significantly lower than previous... some did go up, but only 1 or 2 of 9, not counting my team.

will you get to "20"? i doubt it, but wouldn't rule out the possibility completely.

you don't even have to have a ton of bad years. i've seen my market size drop before and i was winning WS(es). that may have been somethign odd from multiple releases ago, but it did happen.

my league's average payroll went up ~10M. not just a 1-year thing. it was because of increased market sizes. for ~150 years it was ~125-135. now, it's ~140 out of nowhere. can see it on the list in statistics "team ..." something at end of tabs. team budgets?

anyway, i setup the finances when i create a league, so i know all the starting points. easy to see it happen with that info.

[LegalEagle80]

So, what exactly does market size do? If fan interest drives ticket sales, and your stadium has a capacity, I would imagine that's the biggest generator of money. And because I'm assuming most of us human players are able to build success in the game, the market size hasn't really impaired us.

Secondly, there are owners who are economizers despite being in a large geographical market -- like Wilpon or Reinsdorf -- so it seems like the budget to tied to that. There's no reason the market size should be different for teams in the same city, because "the market" is the same. Fan interest would be the difference, right?

[MBarrett]

Originally Posted by LegalEagle80

So, what exactly does market size do? If fan interest drives ticket sales, and your stadium has a capacity, I would imagine that's the biggest generator of money. And because I'm assuming most of us human players are able to build success in the game, the market size hasn't really impaired us.

Media Revenue is tied to Market Size.

[jimmysthebestcop]

Tv revenue when setup uses market size. And it's a huge difference top team might get 150+ million a year. Last team might get 30 million

[DaBears]

Originally Posted by PSUColonel

This also works:


10: Yankees

9: Dodgers, Cubs, Giants, Red Sox

8: Mets, Nationals, Angels, Phillies

7: Cardinals. Astros, Braves, Rangers

6: White Sox, Mariners, Blue Jays, D-Backs, Tigers

5: Padres, Orioles, Twins, Rockies

4: Pirates, Indians, Brewers, Athletics

3: Royals, Reds, Marlins, Rays

I like this list overall. NYY used to be more separate but not anymore, both because of the success of BOS/LAD and because Hal is not George.

I would boost the Cardinals up to 8. The issue with them is it is NOT the St. Louis market, but a wide swath of middle America. Detroit is a baseball town so 6 makes sense versus your 5 before. I might put the Ress at 4 instead of 3. They are like a 3.51. It’s not KC, Miami and Tampa, for sure. Just some thoughts.

[NoOne]

within each market size there is a lower, middle and upper range that relates to your local media contracts. remember, that media contracts last more than 1 year.

if you sign one in a high year for 3 years (auto in background as they expire), then have 2 bad years, you still get the revenue of a higher fan interest at that market size.

the more you make the more varied the influence...

e.g. if you have a market size of "2", high and low fan interest may be a few million dollars, and likely no more than ~10M spread.

whereas at higher market levels it could be 10's of millions between a low and high fan interst for that particular market size.
----

between ny and lad and maybe a couple others it's all about timing of their contracts. they are too long to avoid inflation and other issues. when NYY was the first to own their own broadcasting, that gave them a huge upside. LAD followed suit, i think and at least signed a recent contract, and i'm not sure if anyone else? it's really the Notre Dame way of doing things. at one time that was "their" channel, even if it was aired on ABC or anywhere else (home games only? or maybe just that market, i don't know finer details, but they owned it).

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by DaBears

I like this list overall. NYY used to be more separate but not anymore, both because of the success of BOS/LAD and because Hal is not George.

I would boost the Cardinals up to 8. The issue with them is it is NOT the St. Louis market, but a wide swath of middle America. Detroit is a baseball town so 6 makes sense versus your 5 before. I might put the Ress at 4 instead of 3. They are like a 3.51. It’s not KC, Miami and Tampa, for sure. Just some thoughts.

If you move the cards up, you need to move another team down...which would it be?

Same goes for the reds...if you move them up you probably need to move another team down.

[PSUColonel]

Originally Posted by DaBears

I like this list overall. NYY used to be more separate but not anymore, both because of the success of BOS/LAD and because Hal is not George.

I would boost the Cardinals up to 8. The issue with them is it is NOT the St. Louis market, but a wide swath of middle America. Detroit is a baseball town so 6 makes sense versus your 5 before. I might put the Ress at 4 instead of 3. They are like a 3.51. It’s not KC, Miami and Tampa, for sure. Just some thoughts.

I can see moving the cards to 8 and lowering the nationals to 7....but I think the reds need to stay where they are...they are the third least valuable franchise in MLB.