Many Questions About Fatigue, Depth Charts, and Start Every X Games

[Timofmars]

I was wondering how the depth chart handles substitutions.

1. How does the "start every x games" count starts? If I have a player set to start every 7th game on the VS LHP depth chart, does it only count the number of games versus LHPs, or does it count all games, and then after 6 games, it will sub on the next LHP it sees? I assume the latter.

2. But if I then have on the VS RHP depth chart for the same player to start every 3 games, will his starts against RHPs reset the count for the start every 7 games vs LHPs?

3. The manual says fatigue is based primarily on games played. Will bringing on a player as a pinch hitter completely negate any rest he might have received for sitting out the game, as well as add more fatigue as if he had played a whole game?

4. Also, there is a setting in the player strategy to not allow a player to be a pinch runner when tired. Well, what about pinch runner, or defensive sub???

5. Do players need to be on the list of pinch runners, pinch hitters, and defensive subs in order to be available to the AI for those purposes? And will players that are the normal starters be available to the AI to use as subs during a game where they did not start because of the scheduled subs starting instead?

6. While searching for answers, I read in another thread that catchers need a rest about every 5 games, and DH and 1st base need no rest usually (the occasional off days are enough). Is that correct? And what about other players?

7. Trainers have a fatigue recovery skill. I can imagine how that helps pitchers. But does it really help position players? I mean, is 1 game of rest enough to fully recover their fatigue (even the hidden amount beyond the 100% rested figure in their profile)?

8. Ideally, I would like my best players to start as much as possible. But if they need rest, I would prefer they get the rest when facing a pitcher whose handedness offers the least penalty to my sub compared to the starter. For example, if my sub is better against LHP (but still weaker than my starter), and the starter is best against against RHPs, then I want the substitution to happen when facing a LHP. Now, I could set it so that my sub never goes in vs RHP even when tired, and just wait for the next LHP to come up, but this may build up fatigue which may make the player have greater risk of injury and play worse (by how much, I have no idea). Or I can set the player to sub every X number of games VS LHP in an attempt to prevent fatigue before it makes the starter tired so that he never suffers fatigue penalties. What do you recommend?

9. The manual says that players plays worse when fatigued. For pitchers, does this mean they don't play as well when not at 100% at the start of the game, or will they still perform just as well, but just get tired faster (and thus be unable to throw as many pitches)?

[NoOne]

1) it's about preceding days...if you had a day off for arighty, it's counting from that previous day off even if the next pitcher is a lefty... it will adhere to the differences you set for lhp/rhp lineups for that day..

7th day -- (1/7)*# of games = gp ... for the most part will occur. even if you put "if starter tired" for lefties... they may gain a day or two here and there, obvsiously.

anytime they hit a lefty when they would normally take a day off, it's delayed unless fatigue is low enough to force it to occur. (only a catcher would experience that most the time.. it would be rare for any other position to drop that low and 1 day be a real difference)

i'm not a fan of how this works. it doesn't account for days off... if the 6th game is after a day off it will still take that day off -- resulting in 2 days off and a 100% rested guy resting for no reason at all.

simple to code it to avoid and minutes of time to fix it. maybe it has changed by now? it didn't used to avoid this. it meerely needs to tally from last day off, regardless of why the player didn't play... fixed. as of a year or two ago it defintieyl does not do this. it's already doing this (=the reason why it's such an easy fix), but unfortunately just from the wrong starting point relative to common sense

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2) "1)" explains this.

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3) when i DH a catcher, his fatigue remains unchanged, if not mistaken. so playing in the field is the key and where they play affects it too. C//lfcf/3b/2b? there's 3 or 4 positions that can potentially get "exhausted" if not careful... C for sure, obviously.

most will tkae ~20 games played without a rest (not a good #, just an idea of scale...) while a catcher could be exhausted in ~9games?.

so, i'd wager ph someone will prevent a recuperation just like DH'ing but shouldn't make them more fatigued than previously. (maybe just a slight reduction for 1ph? you'd have to test.)

if it's on same "rail" as rust, it's per ab that causes fatigue to increase? check manual about how rust works, it mentions this specifically it's AB or IP, not gp in ST that is important. although the dh thing would contradict this assumption i guess since they maintain fatigue, not lose it.
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4) yes, player stratagies has a checkbox for this. use it on your catchers for sure. Strategy->player strategy tab ("individual player stategies" 1 of 2 labels)... or right click player and select "Game Strategy" form that context menu -- same thing.

force position, affect stealing stragies etc etc..

important note -- these sliders for the players strategies are Relative to coach's sliders that you see on team strategy screen...

E.G. a coach that "steals alot" and a player "steals alot" will steal more often than a coach that is "middle-ish" and player "steals alot"

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5) i don't think so, but htey'd be used way more often... just as an unspecified role in bullpen will be used eventually due to fatigue of other players.

if oyu got a guy with 100speed/100br, i bet the guy gets used, regardless, as a pinch running in very select contexts -- as they should be.

check it and see, run the same season twice using a backup, leave all the same except that one change to the depth chart. i bet it's more about you controlling pecking order and the pr and ph will be used as often as coach sliders determine them to be used.

ie it give you control over who should be used, so still important to set it up yourself.
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6) with normal fatigue setting, sure, that sounds about right. i think catcher ability has a minor influence over this? some guys can go more before becoming exhausted, if i recall. (i've been using a strict 6 on 1 off schedule, so it's been too many years now since i had a ~20 game stretch)

CAtcher you can gain more by substituting earlyer than the last second... ie don't wait for exhausted. subbing after 3 days, then ~6 can help you eke out an extra GP in a long 15-20 game stretch. you have to look ahead and time it right so you don't take a day off ~1 or 2 days before a normal day off in schedule. sometimes with better timing you can take the same # of days off but play at a consistently higher % fatigue. that will result in a higher probability of success for that catcher over that same period of time.

timing around days off is key.

unlike pitchers, they track further back than 5 days.. not sure how far. but recent days off will matter more than 5 days back. pitcher stamina is 100% about stamina rating relative to # of pitches in last 5 days. (SP/RP have slightly different rules but still last 5days only important)

if you run cathers into ground before day off, it may take 2 days to get 100%. if not they are starting from 80's% and can go even fewer before a day is needed again. and it gets worse if you keep running them down to ~0% before a day off.

it's a tight rope.. maximize their stats or their usage? with 6days on 1 day off i get ~125-134 without pushing them hard. ~120 on normal schedule is probably a high number to aim for without killing the guy too much.
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7) heh.. forgot about that.. some of my number may be different above than what you see Maybe that's why i saw differences in catchers and not their catching ability? test and see easily.. go edit the trainer after a catcher takes a day off or whatever.. it's retroactive in effect like changin stamina setting on pitchers i bet. if not, just have to do the same process twice to test.
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8) What i do is try to figure out how many LHP i see per year.. this is going to change wildly, unfortunately, in some season. 25-40+ is about hte normal range i see. i assume ~35-40 which is nearly 25% of the time.

so if you start them every single LHP it'll be 30-40 games of rest. go from there using the x out y days settings. 1/2? ~15-20 games of rest.

now, theory won't always hold up, but most of the time it will... you see too long aof a stretch without a LHP and a catcher might get subbed regardless. less likely for a position player, since their window of use is much larger.

if i have a righty catcher, i prefer they take days off against righties, though... same with position players if that's needed. (not with my 6on/1off schedule, lol).

it doesn't work as well from this direction (starting with v rhp days off not v lhp), but you can still influence it and control the # of days fairly well.

same idea ~120 games... 1/5th of 120 is 24days off. that;s not enough days off for a catcher, too many for anyone else. but, they will inevitalby need some days off vs LHP during course of year, so likely # of rest days will be slightly higher than the estimate.

just try to maximize vs same hand for the subtition days if you want to maximize that player's success (subbing a lefty when playing vs a lefty SP generally helps)... or maybe not for the team's sake etc... context and your wishes/opinions will dictate.
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9) yup.. i use pitch counts to ensure they are 96-100% for next start. if there's a day off you can bump it up a bit without a problem for that one game.

or you can work the opposite way.. if they are a little fatigued for next start and you cannot use another guy, then use a pitch count tomake sure he doesn't go too far. you'd want to play a few games out to learn what each stamina rating and fatigue at various levels - @ ~90% @95% etc - can get to wihtout getting "slightly tired" or "tired" depending on your preference. the AI will not send them out of they are less than ~10ish pitches short of ptch count. that you could also hash out.

a few data poitns is enough, you can extrapolate the rest.. usually every 5-10 out of 200 stam points is 1-2 extra pitches per start. sp start at some min # and go up.(it's not direct.. ie 200/200 isn't 100pitches, obviously, it's ~118-122 to avoid >96% fatigue in next start... ~125=slightly tried modern settings values)

i usually find that about 7-10 pitches short of when they get "slightly tired" in game (and starting game at 100%) is the point where you will never see them below 96%. that's my arbitrarily choosen number, obviously... maybe you want it to be 92% and higher or 100% etc. you can make it so.

stamina is all about hte rating and # of pitches in last 5 days... rp have some different rules but they are consitent and fairly easy to map out.
e.g. even if they throw 1 pitch, wokring 3 straight days for an RP will exhaust them, i bet. gp and ip are relative to RP in last 5 days + stamina rating ofc.

settings: very low sp stamina or whatever default is .. type of game makes that iffy to say.. if you can pitch high stamina guys with only 3 days off, that's not the same setting as me. 5-man rotation is 100% necessary for the settings i use and anythign i said above to be "real"

[Timofmars]

Originally Posted by NoOne

CAtcher you can gain more by substituting earlyer than the last second... ie don't wait for exhausted. subbing after 3 days, then ~6 can help you eke out an extra GP in a long 15-20 game stretch. you have to look ahead and time it right so you don't take a day off ~1 or 2 days before a normal day off in schedule. sometimes with better timing you can take the same # of days off but play at a consistently higher % fatigue. that will result in a higher probability of success for that catcher over that same period of time.

I always tried to avoid the player playing with any amount of fatigue, since I couldn't be sure about how much the performance penalty and injury chance penalty might be. I couldn't imagine letting a player get to exhausted. I wanted them resting even before the battery showed up.


Also regarding pitching, I'm still a little unclear on whether the % rested a player is affects his performance even from the 1st pitch, or if it affects performance only in terms of causing him to become tired earlier (perhaps slightly tired even at the 1st pitch is possible if he's tired enough?). And I guess the injury risk might be increased in the same exact manner, whichever way it works?

Or possibly it works different for SP and RP?

If performance and injury chance are negatively affected by fatigue right from the 1st pitch, then perhaps I should try to balance my pitching roles slightly more, so that, for example, the AI won't keep using the "use more" middle reliever until exhaustion before moving on to the "use normally" rested guy. I should instead have 2 of them on the same setting so that they share the load more, especially when there isn't a really significant difference in a ability between them, or when I expect them to both get used pretty heavily.

[NoOne]

first paragraph: yeah, tehy do have an increased chance of injury when tired - confirmed by "them" in forums and maybe manual too.

i am with you on this.. i use pitch counts religiously, since i do not play games out. i make sure the ai avoids getting "Tired". i pay careful attention to their changing stamina ratings. if you have a large resolution scale like 1-100, you can be very good and predicting and planning. otherise, you may need to play a few games out even after you hash out the basic math for stam = # of pitches.

Whatever the value is, a pitch cound needs to be ~7-10 lower... then you can watch as games sim what their high water mark is.. if too high, reduce by # necessary. (ignore shutout/no-hitters that go deep into game... anything extraordinarily high might be due to that reason)

if you play the games out yourself, instead of simming, you can control this EXACTLY as you want, of course. learn when slightly tired starts, then make sure you don't get that far... or not far past it... "slightly tired" isn't all bad. you'd want that to pop up during an AB not before you start the next, imo... or avoid all but a couple pitches of "slightly tired"

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2nd P:
Well, if it does, it's like ~normal.


i.e. you through a few pitches in game and get to ~85%... from that point on it's just like starting the game at ~85%, right? do you notice any dwindling in ability from innning 1 through later on, but before it says "slightly tired?"

probably not, or if there is.. it's a very flat curve initially an then when it hits slightly tired begins to increase in steepness (slope of tangent increases more and more).

so, "no" is simple and very likely answer, relative to what we should worry about. but they get tired sooner, obviously.. what once took "106" pitches will take fewer, now. you'd have to hash it out. (made up #s "x").

it will be consistent relative to ~same stamina ratings AND ~same % off.

injury:
couldn't tell you if the % are different for innjury at RP or SP in regards to fatigue. i'd assume it's the same.. a tired arm is a tired arm. that's the cuase.. although maybe tired after 40 and tired after 100 is different animal as reserached in real life?


Maybe use kid gloves for a "wrecked" or very low stamina RP, but other than that, i'd not be afraid to do anything you see on a day-to-day bases in teh real MLB.

back-to-back is necessary ability of your top RP. 3 days in a row? the elite can do it with 3 fairly lowish pitch counts (all less than 15-20), but maybe not wise to do every week.

RP only pitch 60-80ip, so i don't belive it's quite the same risk. i've not had problems from an anecdotal standpoint (not a logical argument though). even 100ip isn't bad for an RP.. and that requires a ton of back to back or even some LR.

if you can stagger ~4 good rp with 2on 1 off worth of work, you'll have great results with bullpen.

if you do have 2 guys to share the load, there's nothing wrong with that. the ai is averse to killing RP... so i wouldn't worry too much abou this.