Christian OOTP4 league - 2002 season

[church]

EagleEye_0, if you dont believe in hell and someone tells you youre going there then whats so offensive about it?

[EagleEye_0]

As I stated before, I dont have a problem with the league and the commish seams like a nice guy. I also definitely didnt attack anyone. What I do have a problem with is Brents post and him stating any non christians are going to hell.

<small>[ 05-30-2002, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: EagleEye_0 ]</small>

[EagleEye_0]

I take offense to it Church because what if there was a child reading this message board and read a message stating he/she was going to hell because he/she was not Christian. Personally, being told I'm going to hell doesnt bother me, but posting on a message board stating anyone who is not christian is going to hell does.

<small>[ 05-30-2002, 01:44 PM: Message edited by: EagleEye_0 ]</small>

[lilmcjr14]

I am also in both of these leagues (YES I AM A CHRISTIAN, AND A BAPTIST AT THAT). Does that make a difference when it comes to playing simulation baseball? No, it doesn't. This thread was originally started to advertise a couple of vacancies we have, not to preach to anybody! If you don't like the rules that are in these leagues, then don't join the league. It is as simple as that! What is wrong with a group of guys (and one lady) getting together in a simulation baseball league?? Not a thing, because each and everyone of you do the same thing. So what difference does it make that we have a Christian league? None whatsoever.

But I do have a thought for those of you who say you don't believe in God........
What if you are wrong? Have you ever thought about that? Just what if we Christians are right? If we are wrong, then what have WE lost? Nothing, right? We will die like everybody else.
But if you are wrong, and there is a heaven and there is a hell and there is a God......then what have you lost?

[huskerdan25]

Fellow baseball fanatics!

I'm glad that there are some of you that understand that the original intent was nothing more than to let people know we exist and are looking for some new owners. I have posted here before asking for potential new owners for BALL in the past and never has a religious debate been started. Seems some people overreacted over the idea that there is a "Christian Sim League". But there is no need to overreact. No one is forcing anyone to follow a line of believing or forcing religion here. We simply are advertising for potential owners who make like the premise of the leagues and the rules we operate by.

I think there are people out there that would appreciate these leagues and their strong history. If you are interested, please feel free to contact me at huskerdan25@attbi.com.

Dan
Commissioner, BALL and BALL2

[mking55]

Draft Dodger, you are not reading what I wrote entirely. That was just one thing and I take it to be a representitive thought by Brent of the whole like-minded group of people.

What they said is other leagues are filled with liars and cheats and they wanted one that isn't. I agree with that. How to get that was to have a "christian league". That is basically what they wrote.

I didn't say anything about them discriminating. You miss the point. But honestly, most people like you do. Not through evil, but through a lack of a real-world view.

To accuse Brent and I of being alike is absurd. Whereas he believes in an afterlife and all that other guck, I believe in this life. He believes in a heaven and hell and I don't. He believes it is his job and other Christians jobs to show people what they consider the "true way". I consider the "true way" is to leave people alone and keep religion to yourself.

[EagleEye_0]

lilm, you just said you arent hear to preach to anybody, but you just did.

[lilmcjr14]

No I wasn't preaching, I just gave you something to think on? Preaching would be to tell you that you are going to hell in a hand basket if you don't accept Jesus as you savior...or to condemn you for your beliefs/thoughths/practices....I didn't do that. I just simply asked a question.

[Killer_Bs]

I see no reason for these posts other than to stir up stink.

The guy posted here recruiting for his league.

If you don't fit the criteria then don't apply.

It's just like a league that would require you to have DH's and artificial turf. If you don't like that, you ignore it and move on.

But since his rules tied in with religion you made it into a big deal, blew it out of porportion, and wasted lots of bandwidth and other peoples time trying to explain it to you.

Move On...

[Steve Kuffrey]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Killer_Bs:
<strong>I see no reason for these posts other than to stir up stink.

The guy posted here recruiting for his league.

If you don't fit the criteria then don't apply.

It's just like a league that would require you to have DH's and artificial turf. If you don't like that, you ignore it and move on.

But since his rules tied in with religion you made it into a big deal, blew it out of porportion, and wasted lots of bandwidth and other peoples time trying to explain it to you.

Move On...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">EXACTLY.....and I will say "AMEN"

[Jason]

Well...this is certainly becoming a tempest in a teapot.

As the guy who first e-mailed Kevin Bullock about the idea of starting BALL, I'd like to address a few of the issues in this thread. Some of them will go off the topic of recruiting players for BALL2 but I would like to cover some of the concerns that have been expressed.

Since Dan and Kevin have addressed the reasons for the founding of the league, I won't speak long on that. I just want to add the final straw that lead me to leave the FPS leagues I was in and pray for direction was when pornographic photos were mailed to all league members by other league members. The league had teenagers in it and I personally could not be associated with a league that would knowing allow porn to be sent to teenagers. I would hope everyone on this board, regardless of your religious status, would concur on that point.

We knew a league like ours would be attacked on many fronts when it was created. We know this because the #1 problem with Christianity is Christians. mking55 has obviously had bad personal contact with people who identify themselves as Christians and I think the problem he's had can be defined in something his comment about one's actions.

Christians need to show their beliefs by their actions and not by their words. They need to stop telling 8th grade kids they're going to hell and focus on living their life in a way that will make that 8th grade kid look at them and think "that's the way a person should live their life."

Basically mking55 is right that the "Christian" kids who kept telling his daughter she was going to hell was wrong in their approach. I'm embarassed as a Christian it happened to her. Do I believe that if you're not a Christian you'll go to hell? Yes, I do. But I also know that if someone doesn't want to believe that--for whatever reason--my coming up to them and saying you're going to hell won't change it and will more than likely drive your opinion of Christianity even lower. The people who are teaching the Sunday Schools of those kids need to take a hard look at the way they're teaching those kids.

Danny, I hope you realize that when you question someone's faith or the tennets of that belief they will respond with the doctrine or scripture to back up their beliefs. If you ask us if we believe someone who does not profess Jesus as their savior is destined for hell we will respond yes. That is our belief. If you know we believe that then why ask us if the answer offends you? We're not going to lie to you if the question is posted directly to us. Explaining your beliefs isn't preaching because no matter what you believe when someone asks you why you believe it (or question those beliefs) you'll defend your position.

Now...can someone be entirely too aggressive in defending that position? I think we can all agree they can...regardless of their beliefs or opinions.

Danny if you're not a Christian that's fine. Would I like to see you become a Christian? I'd be lying if I said I didn't. However, you don't know me...how I live my life...so any words I give you will ring hollow because those words will be measured against the Christians you've known in your real life. They may or may not be like me...but I can't control that nor can I worry about that. If you ask me a question about my faith, I will respond to you honestly and directly. If you don't want to discuss it, then we won't. We can talk about why Albert Pujols is player of the week for both the AL and NL on the CBSL web site. (I know the kid's good but sheesh!)

The owners of BALL are required to act within a code of conduct that is based on the directives given to Christians in the Bible about how they are to live and deal with their fellow man. This means you don't try to cheat other owners in trades. You don't lie when asked about things relating to the league. You don't send e-mails to the league attacking other owners or send e-mails with attachments that would be offensive.

Do non-Christian leagues have similar codes of conduct? Sure they do. Did they base them on Christian teachings? Maybe, maybe not. We just acknowledge that's where we take our code of conduct. If an owner who is a non-Christian wants to join our league and abide by the rules then they can join. They will also be told right up front that e-mails between the owners will frequently contain Christian topics as well as baseball topics and if that's acceptable then they become a part of the league.

The bottom line in regards to the leagues is this: we have a right to exist the way we do. All leagues have some kind of guideline for membership...even if it's just the commissioner deciding who gets in and who doesn't. We could have easily started our league as a Christian league and not posted it on the web site or told owners ahead of time about it. That would be dishonest and we won't act in that manner.

Could we make a post on the message boards saying we have openings and not say we're a Christian league? Sure we could. Is that being completely fair and honest to the people looking for a league? No, it isn't. I remember when I first started looking for leagues and any time there were openings I would get very excited and head right to that league's site...then see that I can't join because "I don't own the game" or "Only New York Yankees fans can join" or it's a "league for residents of southern California." Did it tick me off? You bet. I felt like I was wasting my time on that site. We just try to show the courtesy to not waste someone's time if our league is not what they want.

Finally, Christians have the right to express their beliefs the same as anyone else has a right to express theirs. Would any member of BALL or BALL2 or any other Christian have made religious-oriented comments in this thread or forum had the issue not been pressed. Kevin's original thread had ZERO religious content beyond the message header saying it was a Christian league. Had everyone just looked at the message and thought "that league's not for me" and went to another post we wouldn't be where we are right now.

If you wish to discuss this further or just comment, please contact me directly instead of in-forum. My e-mail is promo@ktts.com.

[EagleEye_0]

As some of you have noticed my original intent was in in fact to stir up thought on the subject. I do admit I should have started a new thread from the start. I most definitely do not see this as a useless topic, I know that I am probably wrong about a lot of things and I looks for ways to improve my knoweledge and philosophical outlook on things. Theres always room to learn and grow as a person and even reading this thread has taught me some things.

Your right about your post lilm. Since I've been the most active participant in this discussion I'll choose to stop replying in order to disolve the dicsussion. I apologize for stirring up trouble if you feel I did, I take every experience as an educational one and will learn from this. I do wish you guys the best of luck in your league.

lol on Pujols btw. Actually we havnt started simming yet and that was just to show the setup for the webpage. It was easiest just to use the same player. Also just wanted ot say my Mother as well as many other members of my family and most of my friends are in fact christian

<small>[ 05-30-2002, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: EagleEye_0 ]</small>

[Draft Dodger]

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mking55:
<strong>I didn't say anything about them discriminating. You miss the point. But honestly, most people like you do. Not through evil, but through a lack of a real-world view.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">can you define "people like me"?

[mking55]

I think it was a most excellent stir.

Enough said.

[kevintbullock]

We're looking for a few good owners!

2002 season, MLB current salaries, going to implement revenue sharing plan so everyone can compete.

interested? check us out!
There are currently no openings in BALL1.

BALL2's website:
<a href="http://balltwo.netfirms.com/" target="_blank">http://balltwo.netfirms.com/</a>

Interested? e-mail me at kevintbullock@hotmail.com

Kevin Bullock
co-founder, BALL and BALL2
Commish-pending, BALL2

[Drake]

EagleEye,

For the record, I concur with your assessment that you are probably going to hell. But I doubt it's because you don't believe in Jesus.

More likely because you're an idiot.

[kevintbullock]

Um, Drake, that's not constructive...

[Drake]

Indeed it isn't.

[Khaos]

Wow. I almost missed the controversy because I rarely check this board.

As I diehard agnostic who was originally a disenfranchised catholic, I can say that I really don't have a problem with the whole christian league thing.

What it does is tells me a league is being formed for people who feel the need to put god as the priority in their lives. Their choice. Their league. It lets me know I want to avoid it like the plague. It's no different then someone saying there are openings in a Soap Opera Fan league. It allows me the knowledge that I want to avoid that one like the plague also.

Why all the anquish? I think I know some reasons.

1. Christians have a very large influence in this country on laws and the creation and implementaion of them.

2. This influence is based on their belief and will many times counteract the belief of another. This is wrong when the belief of another will not harm anyone, only offend someone that doesn't agree. Being offensive is not illegal.

3. Falwell and Roberts saying the events of 9-11 were the result of God being pissed at non-christians and their actions. Our very own modern Babylon? While not all christians condone this opinion, millions do listen to these two dolts and do agree with what they say.

4. Basicly many see christians as a threat to their way of life since many christians feel it important to spread the word of God and get others to follow the same beliefs. When you have someone different than you and also wanting you to be like them and also trying to limit your lifestyle because they feel it's wrong, you will see them as a threat and act as much.

5. </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For the record, I believe that the primary reason we are on this earth is to give Glory to God. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am I the only one who thinks this makes us sound like God's pets? Am I the only one who doesn't understand how a supposedly all loving and all good God demands we worship and praise him? Would you expect your children to worship and praise you? You made them, you care for them, you love them more than anything, now do you want them to worship and praise you?

6. End tirade of number 5.

7. Bottom line. A Christian League isn't a big deal. However, christians have to expect a certain amount of backlash due to many of that group's push to change the lives of others who don't garner the same beliefs.

[Killer_Bs]

Yes, because EVERYONE knows that Christians are now trying to take over OOTP and mold it into a tool to do their bidding and they should definately receive flak for trying to recruit a few owners to fill their league.