The "Steroids Era"

[DamPenguin]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I don't think so. People that want to toss or segregate accused or intimated abusers really have no good measuring stick to make that judgment. I'm just pushing back against people that take a hard stance on a vague and unprovable line.

I would love to know who cheated and even more, what impact it had. Unfortunately, I don't know and can't know. Neither can folks like our friend psd here. I understand him though, I was enraged at first that Bonds would overcome a record set by a childhood hero like Hammerin' Hank but have since come to realize the folly in my emotional state over that. Also, I have since learned of the suspected foibles of Hank's era - it's just a situation that we can't fix. Have to live with it or rage against it in vain - I choose to live with it.

Yes. Not too long ago my thoughts were maybe like psd x 10. So many factors in play and in the reality of it all we will probably never truly know the whole picture. MLB's blind eye, a player's personal agenda and/or his competitive edge, etc. In the end it just sucks. I miss being a young kid and looking at all the players as if they were real life super heroes. Thinking maybe if I tried hard enough maybe I could be one of them. With age and more knowledge it sucks that those childhood images and beliefs have been shattered. So yeah I can relate to psd being mad, I am too. But like Chris Conn said, I love sports too much to give it up in disappointment or deception. I will continue to watch, live, die with every game only to be reborn again at the start of a new season. All the while hoping or lying to myself that nobody is cheating at the time

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

I don't think so. People that want to toss or segregate accused or intimated abusers really have no good measuring stick to make that judgment. I'm just pushing back against people that take a hard stance on a vague and unprovable line.

I would love to know who cheated and even more, what impact it had. Unfortunately, I don't know and can't know. Neither can folks like our friend psd here. I understand him though, I was enraged at first that Bonds would overcome a record set by a childhood hero like Hammerin' Hank but have since come to realize the folly in my emotional state over that. Also, I have since learned of the suspected foibles of Hank's era - it's just a situation that we can't fix. Have to live with it or rage against it in vain - I choose to live with it.

Not a good enough one in your eyes. That's your opinion. I think my measuring stick is just fine. Society becomes overly permissive because people are too cowardly to speak up & call wrong wrong. So they lessen & lessen standards to the point they have no standards. Chaos & anarchy ensues. The saying used to be "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time". Now it should be "Do the crime cause people are too lazy & scared to take the time".

I'm not of that ilk. The rule is there. They broke the rule. Punishment follows.

[cephasjames]

If a rule is not enforced is it still a rule?

[cephasjames]

Dola. Has Bonds been officially proven guilty of cheating? I can't remember.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

Dola. Has Bonds been officially proven guilty of cheating? I can't remember.

The Balco trial he testified he received a clear injection but wasn't told it was steroids.

[TheMaus2]

Originally Posted by psd

Clemens went 20-3 3.51 as a 38 year old in the AL east
Ryan went 10-12 3.80 as a 38 year old in the NL west.
Yup. Exact replica.

Ever considered talent to be a factor?

[Jason Moyer]

Originally Posted by psd

So let's hear YOUR solution.

a.) Ban harmful substances from the game and impose fair penalties, which they've done.
b.) Stop evaluating HOF candidates based on what players were doing to get an edge unless disqualified via the aforementioned penalties.

Either you penalize everyone in baseball history who "cheated" (which is probably close to 100% of the HOF) or you evaluate their performance based on what they did on the field, as far as I'm concerned.

[dsvitak]

I have several St. Louis Cardinals media guides, stretching back over a very long time.

Albert Pujols, his second year in the league, was listed at 6-3, 215 pounds. Then...the steroids kicked in. For the next four seasons, the media guides listed him at 245 pounds.

NO ONE gains thirty pounds of muscle mass as a 23 year old naturally. It just doesn't happen.

When the scandal broke, so did Pujol's weight. The next year's media guide weight? 220, where it stayed for several years.

I just checked his weight now...back up to 240. I strongly suspect that this is fat, now that he has no incentive to work out. He never did hustle, even as a young man. I never ever saw him run hard on a ground ball, unless he smelled a hit. Terrible, terrible example for the young 'uns.

[dsvitak]

Now...about Barry Bonds.

Bonds is a Hall of Famer, with or without steroids. The best estimate that I have seen projects about 100 extra home runs, due to steroid use.

This still puts him well above 600 for his career.

Would I put him into the HoF? Yes, but after Pete Rose, and holding my nose.

[cephasjames]

I'm struggling with my memory. When Pete Rose was caught gambling was it both against the rules (illegal even?) and were those rules enforced? Or was a blind eye turned towards betting until Rose got in trouble for it?

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

I'm struggling with my memory. When Pete Rose was caught gambling was it both against the rules (illegal even?) and were those rules enforced? Or was a blind eye turned towards betting until Rose got in trouble for it?

Illegal and enforced. A few years earlier Bowie Kuhn had suspended - not permanent and later overturned - Mantle and Mays from the game because of association with a casino...

[slic1149]

Originally Posted by cephasjames

I'm struggling with my memory. When Pete Rose was caught gambling was it both against the rules (illegal even?) and were those rules enforced? Or was a blind eye turned towards betting until Rose got in trouble for it?

Gambling has been the sport's ultimate taboo since the 1919 Black Sox. Rose was busted for gambling on his team, and lying about it for almost 20 years. My personal opinion is every HOF worthy baseball "villain" who played on PED's should be admitted to the hall before Rose. Gambling on the sport one is playing is the biggest sin a player can make, in my opinion.

[cephasjames]

That's what I thought. Which again to me brings up the whole thing with the "steroid era" is that, while steroids were against the rules, those rules were not enforced. How can someone be punished in hindsight for breaking unenforced rules? Unenforced rules = no rule at all.

Now that PED rules are enforced, I'm 100% behind the idea of not allowing rule breakers into the hall.

[Cobra Mgr]

I don't think it is right to say the steroid ban was an "unenforced rule". Baseball could punish it from the time they were banned in the 90's. The problem was it could only be banned if there was evidence it was being used. They had zero means of detecting as outlined by the CBA. If baseball had evidence someone was taking it & then neglected to punish, then you call it unenforced. But just because no one was found guilty doesn't make it unenforced.

[CONN CHRIS]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I don't think it is right to say the steroid ban was an "unenforced rule". Baseball could punish it from the time they were banned in the 90's. The problem was it could only be banned if there was evidence it was being used. They had zero means of detecting as outlined by the CBA. If baseball had evidence someone was taking it & then neglected to punish, then you call it unenforced. But just because no one was found guilty doesn't make it unenforced.

Your argument keeps eating itself.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by CONN CHRIS

Your argument keeps eating itself.

What an intellectual reasoned well thought out response,

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I don't think it is right to say the steroid ban was an "unenforced rule". Baseball could punish it from the time they were banned in the 90's. The problem was it could only be banned if there was evidence it was being used. They had zero means of detecting as outlined by the CBA. If baseball had evidence someone was taking it & then neglected to punish, then you call it unenforced. But just because no one was found guilty doesn't make it unenforced.

Mark McGwire had a big can of andro-creatine openly displayed in his locker for several years.

He didn't hide that he was taking these steroid pre-cursors..it certainly wasn't illegal.

It wasn't until he hit 70 bombs that others started to worry about their legacies. Stan Musial was said to have complained, to another HoF'er, "They're taking all our records."

So...do I like that steroids was used? Absolutely not. There was a time in my life that I could name every baseball player that had ever hit 50+ homers in a season, how many, and what year. Then it got stupid..some idiot in Baltimore hit 50+, and looked like Jeff Bagwell doing it. Oops! Did I say Jeff Bagwell? I meant to say Albert Pujols.

[dsvitak]

Originally Posted by slic1149

Gambling has been the sport's ultimate taboo since the 1919 Black Sox. Rose was busted for gambling on his team, and lying about it for almost 20 years. My personal opinion is every HOF worthy baseball "villain" who played on PED's should be admitted to the hall before Rose. Gambling on the sport one is playing is the biggest sin a player can make, in my opinion.

I read the entire Dowd Report. I may be the only person in the entire nation to read the entire 1,100 page report, in its entirety.

The report makes a clear and compelling case that Pete Rose bet on baseball, and bet on his own team. He did not bet on his own team to lose, but only to win.

....aaaaand he had a problem. He was into the bookies for hundreds of thousands of dollars. Pete was a pretty ****ty better.

Now, before we get any Rose apologists here arguing on whether or not he bet on baseball, I have linked to the Dowd Report. Just shut the hell up and read the report, THEN we can discuss it, from a fact-driven basis.

http://www.thedowdreport.com/

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by dsvitak

Mark McGwire had a big can of andro-creatine openly displayed in his locker for several years.

He didn't hide that he was taking these steroid pre-cursors..it certainly wasn't illegal.

It wasn't until he hit 70 bombs that others started to worry about their legacies. Stan Musial was said to have complained, to another HoF'er, "They're taking all our records."

Not sure if your post was a reply to my post. And if it was, not sure of the point you are making.

When McGwire was taking ando, it wasn't, as you noted, illegal. Therefore, it wouldn't lend proof that the steroids ban was unenforced.

[The Game]

"While steroids had been part of baseball's banned substance list since 1991, testing for major league players did not begin until 2003, when MLB conducted surveys to help gauge the extent of performance-enhancing drug (PED) use in the game"

"Regarding the second part of the question, the distinction between Andro and creatine is great. Andro is a steroid hormone..."

So if Andro is a steroid but wasnt banned until 2004, McGwire was still wrong for taking it and in violation of the rules at the time.