Bullpen Idiots

[BusterKing]

Originally Posted by texasmame

That's a shame, because save for the topic of this thread and one or two other minorish things (for me, anyway), this game is pretty damn well near perfect.

You should really give it another shot.

I guess his point of view is that managing the bullpen is actually a huge part of baseball and not having it implemented properly is not worth his time.

I would love to see the AI using the pitchers warming up, who knows, maybe Markus will surprise us one day.

[oldtimey]

Originally Posted by texasmame

That's a shame, because save for the topic of this thread and one or two other minorish things (for me, anyway), this game is pretty damn well near perfect.

You should really give it another shot.

It is a shame...and here's the thing. I love everything that the developers have done with the game, especially the progression of the 3d animation. The management aspect of the game, which is the strength of this sim, continues to improve every year. If I didn't like the game or the community, I wouldn't bother to lurk around here. I check every version's release, hoping for a change in the in-game bullpen AI...well, there's always next year.

[Orcin]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

It is a shame...and here's the thing. I love everything that the developers have done with the game, especially the progression of the 3d animation. The management aspect of the game, which is the strength of this sim, continues to improve every year. If I didn't like the game or the community, I wouldn't bother to lurk around here. I check every version's release, hoping for a change in the in-game bullpen AI...well, there's always next year.

You have no idea what you are missing.

[oldtimey]

Originally Posted by Orcin

You have no idea what you are missing.

Well, you can't miss what you never had. I am playing baseball, starting my 5th season on "that console game" franchise. It is great game to game, which is my thing. I do my own archiving using Excel. It is a little work, but I am enjoying my baseball universe, just like you guys!

[Painmantle]

WOW, this thread is still going and at 5 pages! Didn't see that coming. Gotta love the passion OOTP delivers every release!

[Anyone]

As it is, I keep warmup mode off when I play, especially because I read on this board sometime in the past that the cpu doesn't have to use warmup. So it's not grabbing an advantage, but leveling the playing field. I think I'll always play with it off, even if this is fixed as I'm about to suggest, until/unless the cpu also has to warm up pitchers.

But, the fix I'll suggest actually is pretty close to what was suggested, "keep warm" mode. I'd just suggest that be the default, and by default delegated to the bullpen coach (which could be a position on the staff, but probably doesn't have to be-- one can assume that anyone with some baseball experience can adequately handle it, I'd guess). The pitcher can sit down or soft toss all game, warming up when he gets cold, if you want him to. There would be a tradeoff, which is that he will fatigue for future games as if he had been brought in (not as if he'd pitched a lot, but as if he'd faced some batters), if you have him do that for too long, and he also would come in at less than full strength otherwise as well, if he does that for several innings-- but never to the point of coming in tired.

To help out the absent minded (it should be possible to make bad decisions, but not to make them just because you forget to change them), then whenever your team comes to bat and you've left a pitcher being kept warm, it could pop up and say, "John Doe is still being kept warm in the bullpen. Do you want this?" Then, for those who find the pop-ups annoying, an option to turn them off would also be ideal. I think I'd want them.

For now, and until/unless they make a change like this, if it annoys you I suggest you just turn the warmup rule off.

[texasmame]

Guessing this hasn't been addressed in this patch?

[tward13]

Too bad. Why not have this feature work correctly?

Las night I was watching the Mets 16 inning game, at one point Addison Reed was in the bullpen crouched on the mound watching the action.. Did Terry Collins have to call down to tell Reed to take it easy since the Mets had a rally going? Or did Reed know to stop throwing for a few minutes? I'm thinking the manager doesn't need to micro-manage to that extent.

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by tward13

Too bad. Why not have this feature work correctly?

Las night I was watching the Mets 16 inning game, at one point Addison Reed was in the bullpen crouched on the mound watching the action.. Did Terry Collins have to call down to tell Reed to take it easy since the Mets had a rally going? Or did Reed know to stop throwing for a few minutes? I'm thinking the manager doesn't need to micro-manage to that extent.

Yeah, the Red Sox game the other day featured Matt Barnes standing there *watching* after having fully warmed up. AMAZING!

[texasmame]

#fixthepen

[Airdrop01]

hahaha

[PhillieFever]

Compared to how it was prior, when you could abuse the system, the new system is much better. it keeps you on your toes so to speak, and if I were forced to choose between the two I'll take the current system all day long. In the end, this is a GAME. Part of this game's rules are that you need to stay on top of your bullpen, and if not, you pay the fiddler.
If this feature could be improved, I'm all ears, but as it stands I've seen nothing BETTER than what we have now. Just having a pitcher standing around perpetually warm is no better than what we had before, so that's no good, and adding a limit to him standing around "warm" is just another way of doing what we already have. In either scenario there's a limit and a penalty, so why change it.

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

. . .Part of this game's rules are that you need to stay on top of your bullpen, and if not, you pay the fiddler. . . .

As already stated many, many times in this thread - this current setup is simply not realistic and, therefore, unacceptable.

[PhillieFever]

Originally Posted by texasmame

As already stated many, many times in this thread - this current setup is simply not realistic and, therefore, unacceptable.

There's a lot of things that are unrealistic, it's a video game. So that in itself isn't a good enough reason for change. In order to change what we have, something better needs to replace it. The system we have now is better than the prior system, I don't think there's any arguing that. If you or someone here can plot out a better system, one that works within the game as it is now, then I'm confident that Markus and the gang would give it a look.
Bullpen usage is a critical part of a baseball management sim(and of course real baseball), one that should have built in penalties for misuse, at least in my opinion. That said, what is your/the/a suggestion for improving what we have while still maintaining that penalty, or some form of penalty. You simply cannot warm up a pitcher and put him on standby indefinitely, that creates a system of abuse.We've already had that, it doesn't work.

[Padreman]

Or if you can design a mod that will better utilize the bullpen please do so. No rules against that's

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by Padreman

Or if you can design a mod that will better utilize the bullpen please do so. No rules against that's

Getting a baseball sim to properly simulate baseball isn't a "mod" - it would be more properly described a "fix" for what's clearly broken.

[Statsman1]

Yeah, I won't play Space Invaders until there's actual proof that aliens exist, either!

[Anyone]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Compared to how it was prior, when you could abuse the system, the new system is much better. it keeps you on your toes so to speak, and if I were forced to choose between the two I'll take the current system all day long. In the end, this is a GAME. Part of this game's rules are that you need to stay on top of your bullpen, and if not, you pay the fiddler.

Which is a crappy rule, because it forces you do to something real managers don't have to. That's delegated to bullpen coaches.

I'm not too bothered by it because of the option to turn the warmup rule off completely; but that's what I'll continue to do until and unless they make it only as hard as it is on a real manager.

That means only specifying which pitchers (which are limited by the fact there are only two bullpen mounds, so it isn't trivial) you want to keep ready, and a small amount of, but much less than current, fatigue from keeping a pitcher ready too long. Much less, because he'll alternate throwing/soft tossing/resting.

[Hoiles]

The bullpen management is something that, while pretty minor, isn't particularly fun to deal with. Unlike say, super picky trade AI, it doesnt really add anything to the baseball experience or is realistic, other than tedium. For example now, instead of focusing completely on a late-inning rally, I also have to check into the bullpen after every batter to see if my reliever is tiring. Kind of detracts from the experience. I think there would be a lot less complaints if they were to revamp it (tiring relievers stop) than if they kept the current way.

[Hoiles]

Originally Posted by PhillieFever

Compared to how it was prior, when you could abuse the system, the new system is much better. it keeps you on your toes so to speak, and if I were forced to choose between the two I'll take the current system all day long.

I actually disagree with this. I would say that taking advantage of things like shoddy trade AI or in-game AI is abuse, because they can be characterized as unrealistic, or lack a fundamental implementation of baseball itself. (Not speaking about OOTP, as its AI is pretty good). On the other hand, a lenient bullpen warm-up AI, makes the game easier, but by streamlining controls rather than implementing unrealistic behavior. Just my two cents.

Besides, when had a team ever lost a game because their closer was tired because he was warming up too long?