Bullpen Idiots

['94 EXPOS]

There are many instances throughout the course of a season where a manager will get a guy up, get him fully warmed up and then not use him....and the manager basically counts it as an appearance....there is no way that guy is getting back up save for an emergency

Warming up for a reliever is a very personal unique thing....to accurately reflect individual traits in a sim would be quite difficult (I think OOTP will get there one day)

IMO the game does a good job of rewarding manager foresight by having the right pitcher ready at the right time and has a suitable punishment for poor/overly safe planning

[RchW]

When you warm up a reliever and don't use them, the players call it "dry humping". They also don't like it at all. Managers who do it are not well liked.

[curt]

I warm up my pitcher and if the inning is getting long, I sit him down. I think that is "bull pen" management as it should be.

[tward13]

I agree with the OP. The tiring thing isn't right in that it shows up too quickly. We should get some more time to account for the pitcher soft tossing to stay warm. Maybe it takes a full inning before he's really tiring.

Also wish the AI could handle warm ups for the opponent. On the main in game screen we should be able to see who's warming up for each team and whether L/R. It would help with decision making and reduce clicks.

[Airdrop01]

Originally Posted by RchW

When you warm up a reliever and don't use them, the players call it "dry humping". They also don't like it at all. Managers who do it are not well liked.

Thank you!! I wanted to say that to all the "real baseball" stuff in this thread but you did it much more diplomatically than I had in mind.

[Orcin]

The one suggestion in this thread that I like is better visibility to the relievers warming up. If an unintrusive widget could be added to alleviate the need to constantly flip back to the substitution screen, it would be very helpful.

Bullpen management should require attention. However, I would be happy with a solution that allowed the player to delegate it to the pitching coach in the same way that defensive alignments are delegated to the bench coach. In this solution, the pitching coach would choose the reliever(s) to warm up based on the depth chart.

If you don't delegate, you fully manage it or turn off warm ups in the options.

[HonusWagner]

Agree with OP, 100%.

Does the manager have to tell the fielders the inning is over so time to come into the dugout?

Does the manager tell the batter to stop taking warm up swings and get into the box?

Does the manager tell the runner to stop running because he's already reached 1st base?

So why does the manager need to tell the pitcher warming up that he needs to stop warming up before reaching exhaustion?

[David Watts]

Originally Posted by HonusWagner

Agree with OP, 100%.

Does the manager have to tell the fielders the inning is over so time to come into the dugout?

Does the manager tell the batter to stop taking warm up swings and get into the box?

Does the manager tell the runner to stop running because he's already reached 1st base?

So why does the manager need to tell the pitcher warming up that he needs to stop warming up before reaching exhaustion?

When a baserunner is approaching 3rd, does the manager get a text message from the 3B coach/the gm/ a concerned fan with the strength of the outfielders arm and the runners speed asking if he wants to send the runner home

[lschaef]

Originally Posted by Orcin

The one suggestion in this thread that I like is better visibility to the relievers warming up. If an unintrusive widget could be added to alleviate the need to constantly flip back to the substitution screen, it would be very helpful.

I agree with this. I always turn off the warm up option. I'd like to use it to make the game more challenging for me, but it is too tedious to flip back and forth between screens.

A widget that told you who was up in your pen and your opponents pen would be very helpful.

Another idea is to maybe have a message pop up telling you that a pitcher warming up is ready. Maybe it could give you three options, "Make pitching change", "Sit him down", "Keep him ready"

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by lschaef

Another idea is to maybe have a message pop up telling you that a pitcher warming up is ready. Maybe it could give you three options, "Make pitching change", "Sit him down", "Keep him ready"

This sounds reasonable and workable.

Make it so.

[Questdog]

You are not at the whim of the developer in how you implement a bullpen warmup rule! Just turn off the in-game warmup rules and devise your own! The AI does not use the rule whether it is on or off, so there is no advantage to you making up your own rules.

Personally, I play with a rule that when I get a pitcher warming up, the current pitcher has to face 2 batters before I can bring him in. No warmup is needed to bring in a pitcher to start an inning. The third inning I warm a pitcher up, he has to pitch that inning or not pitch at all unless he starts an inning.

Now, if you are the type of person who does not have the discipline to play by the rules he has created for himself, then that is another issue.....

[BBGiovanni]

Originally Posted by Orcin

The one suggestion in this thread that I like is better visibility to the relievers warming up. If an unintrusive widget could be added to alleviate the need to constantly flip back to the substitution screen, it would be very helpful.

HardBall used to have little side windows in which you could see the reliever working, it was pretty fun (and depressing, depending on which terrible pitcher you were desperate enough to warm up and how nasty the closer on the other bench was).

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by Questdog

You are not at the whim of the developer in how you implement a bullpen warmup rule! Just turn off the in-game warmup rules and devise your own! The AI does not use the rule whether it is on or off, so there is no advantage to you making up your own rules.

Personally, I play with a rule that when I get a pitcher warming up, the current pitcher has to face 2 batters before I can bring him in. No warmup is needed to bring in a pitcher to start an inning. The third inning I warm a pitcher up, he has to pitch that inning or not pitch at all unless he starts an inning.

Now, if you are the type of person who does not have the discipline to play by the rules he has created for himself, then that is another issue.....

You're approaching this like it's an issue that's beyond the capabilities of the AI or something.

House rules are fine for not fleecing the AI in trades but shouldn't be used to overcome clearly poor coding.

Full stop.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by texasmame

You're approaching this like it's an issue that's beyond the capabilities of the AI or something.

House rules are fine for not fleecing the AI in trades but shouldn't be used to overcome clearly poor coding.

Full stop.

The AI does not even use the rule regardless of what you do, so it is well within the realm of normalcy for a player to use whatever system he thinks is best if he is not satisfied with the way it is handled in the game.

And actually, it is NOT clearly poor coding in the bullpen rule. And it is insulting for you to term it such.

It is a bit strange that you think it is fine to have an idiot AI that you have to have house rules to be able to trade with, but cannot accept a bullpen warmup rule that is not designed how you see fit.

Poor coding, by the way, means you gave the computer instructions that did not get it to accomplish what you had wanted it to do. This is not the case here, at all. The rule works how it was designed to work. If you do not like the way it is implemented (as I do not), then either use your own rules (as I do), or lobby for a change with politeness and respect. Insults are just plain rude and are not effective at augmenting your argument.

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by Questdog

The AI does not even use the rule regardless of what you do, so it is well within the realm of normalcy for a player to use whatever system he thinks is best if he is not satisfied with the way it is handled in the game.

And actually, it is NOT clearly poor coding in the bullpen rule. And it is insulting for you to term it such.

It is a bit strange that you think it is fine to have an idiot AI that you have to have house rules to be able to trade with, but cannot accept a bullpen warmup rule that is not designed how you see fit.

Poor coding, by the way, means you gave the computer instructions that did not get it to accomplish what you had wanted it to do. This is not the case here, at all. The rule works how it was designed to work. If you do not like the way it is implemented (as I do not), then either use your own rules (as I do), or lobby for a change with politeness and respect. Insults are just plain rude and are not effective at augmenting your argument.

As I said in my initial post: this is an otherwise stellar game.

But just look at the replies in this thread. As currently constituted, the bullpen warmup parameters, coding, rules, voodoo, however you feel comfortable defining it, are off to the extent it's generating legitimate complaints from the customer base. The above attempts at obfuscation and hair-splitting do not change this simple fact - this baseball sim is not simming this part of the game of baseball properly.

That said, I fully expect something good to come of this thread - Matt and co. can see the issues expressed here and, I'm sure, just like they did with the problem people had of dragging players to the wrong spots in the lineup accidentally at times with no "undo" option, they'll come up with some sort of fix in short order.

Right after they fix the inability to drag and drop name placeholders on 3D stadiums.

[maximus33]

You may get "tired" waiting for them to do something about it.

[BusterKing]

Many many versions ago I complained about the bullpen missing for the AI and was told by Markus that coding it would be a nightmare to do to have it working properly, meaning hours and hours of coding time, in other words, forget it.

So I decided to not use the warm up rule keeping in mind that in the MLB you have your coaches handling that part of it. So I'm pretending that when I do a pitching change my coaches got my pitchers ready accordingly. So all is good... for me.

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by BusterKing

Many many versions ago I complained about the bullpen missing for the AI and was told by Markus that coding it would be a nightmare to do to have it working properly, meaning hours and hours of coding time, in other words, forget it.

So I decided to not use the warm up rule keeping in mind that in the MLB you have your coaches handling that part of it. So I'm pretending that when I do a pitching change my coaches got my pitchers ready accordingly. So all is good... for me.

IIRC, this wasn't an issue until a version (or two) ago. Did they not have tiring in the bullpen then - I don't recall and deleted 16 when I got 18.

[oldtimey]

I remember my first experience with OOTP 13. I set up to play the game like I have with every sim I have played, which is AI vs AI. The games gets into the 7th, with the Cubs holding onto a 4-3 lead after Zambrano gives up a lead-off homer. His pitch count was up there, so I am expecting the pbp to inform me of the bullpen activity, or a pitching coach visit, just like every other sim that I have played. All I got was a notification of a pitching change. I know that I had checked the warm-up rule box. So why wasn't I notified of this guy warming up? If I was at a real ballpark, this situation would have me looking to the bullpen to see who is warming up. At home on my couch watching the same game, I would look for pitching coach or manager to make his way to the mound while cameras would cut to the pen, showing guys stretching and windmilling their arms, or, of a guy already throwing or standing in pause, waiting for the next move. Having a reliever appear genie-like into the game is not baseball. OOTP disappointed me that day, as it did not adequately simulate this aspect of ballgame management. That's why v13 is the last version I played.

[texasmame]

Originally Posted by oldtimey

I remember my first experience with OOTP 13. I set up to play the game like I have with every sim I have played, which is AI vs AI. The games gets into the 7th, with the Cubs holding onto a 4-3 lead after Zambrano gives up a lead-off homer. His pitch count was up there, so I am expecting the pbp to inform me of the bullpen activity, or a pitching coach visit, just like every other sim that I have played. All I got was a notification of a pitching change. I know that I had checked the warm-up rule box. So why wasn't I notified of this guy warming up? If I was at a real ballpark, this situation would have me looking to the bullpen to see who is warming up. At home on my couch watching the same game, I would look for pitching coach or manager to make his way to the mound while cameras would cut to the pen, showing guys stretching and windmilling their arms, or, of a guy already throwing or standing in pause, waiting for the next move. Having a reliever appear genie-like into the game is not baseball. OOTP disappointed me that day, as it did not adequately simulate this aspect of ballgame management. That's why v13 is the last version I played.

That's a shame, because save for the topic of this thread and one or two other minorish things (for me, anyway), this game is pretty damn well near perfect.

You should really give it another shot.