"Pitch framing" vs "Flopping"

Cobra Mgr · Yesterday, 11:43 PM

Why is pitch framing accepted but flopping looked down upon? Both are essentially the same thing: Trying to purposefully influence the officials. In fact, I will go that framing is worse. Cause flopping in basketball can be just trying to sell a call, not make up a phantom one. Framing is fooling the ump to call a strike when it wasn't.

dsvitak · Today, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Why is pitch framing accepted but flopping looked down upon? Both are essentially the same thing: Trying to purposefully influence the officials. In fact, I will go that framing is worse. Cause flopping in basketball can be just trying to sell a call, not make up a phantom one. Framing is fooling the ump to call a strike when it wasn't.

I can't disagree with this. I saw Yadier Molina do this for close to 20 years. None better at this, and I always thought it was wrong.

Ty Cobb · Today, 10:17 AM

Framing is influencing. Flopping is faking. In my opinion, neither is good...but one is a nudge to the official and the other a slap in the face.

As for the morality of framing, perhaps it just balances out Angel Hernandez?

David Watts · Today, 10:33 AM

At least framing is a skill. I can't imagine how hard it is to catch a major league pitcher, but if you add in trying to do so in a way that tricks the umpire, I doubt I would ever even get the glove on the ball.

Syd Thrift · Today, 11:24 AM

The pitchers aren't the ones doing the framing. I'm a little lost there. I will say that IME while there is a skill for catchers to frame pitches, the best guys are the ones who take a light touch with it. ISTR guys - I don't think Yadi ever went this far - who'd constantly snatch at everything close to the zone to try and make it look like they're all strikes and that just makes everything look like a borderline ball.

Flopping, I don't know, just annoys the crap out of me in ways that framing doesn't. I guess the kind of framing I spoke to above did annoy me slightly but like I said I don't think it worked out for the catcher anyway. Both soccer and basketball have gone through runs of floppers - I don't think it's a big issue in the modern NBA but they do have this thing where guys stick a leg out when they shoot, create contact, and draw fouls that the league legislated away 2 years ago but then silently allowed back in - and I think for the moooost part, MLB's been pretty good about eliminating those similar edge case scenarios. I would put the phantom tag and plate collisions in there as the MLB equivalent to flopping: gamesmanship crap that was only in the game because nobody had specifically legislated it away.

Cobra Mgr · Today, 11:30 AM

Who said pitchers were doing the framing?

To me, the ones who are most at fault are the refs/umps themselves. Be better.

But I think both are cheap, cowardly ways to play. You're basically saying I can't beat you straight up man to man so I need to resort tricking the authority to to give me an unfair, unearned advantage.

kq76 · Today, 11:49 AM

I think a difference is the best pitch framing catchers (IMO, not necessarily according to any stats) are far more subtle than floppers are. For example, compare the "top 3 catchers in pitcher framing 2023" (their title, not mine) to Jose Trevino. Notice how the first 3 all often catch the ball first then jerk the ball quite noticeably from one point in space to somewhere else often far away and stop for a good second or two. Then look at Trevino. Notice how far more fluid he is. It's like he has one long arm movement and he just happens to catch the ball in the middle of that motion. And then notice how he usually (sometimes not, but usually) doesn't stop for a long while. It's like he's trusting that he's fooled the umpires instead of begging. I agree, the first 3 catchers, the "top 3", are like floppers, but Trevino is like a master assassin with how good he is. I'm all for the latter and not at all for the first 3.

All more reason to bring in the balls and strikes challenge system however.

Boomcoach · Today, 12:48 PM

While I am not going to defend the worst examples of flopping in soccer, and I would like to see these actions punished more often than they are, I put the blame for some of the "embellishment" in soccer to the way it is officiated. If you are fouled, but play through the contact, especially in attacking areas, you are unlikely to get the foul called.

So if you fight through the foul, lose the ball or end up taking a poor shot, you have hurt your team by not going to ground.

The post foul theatrics are simply silly and look very stupid.

Syd Thrift · Today, 02:11 PM

The NBA has the same issue to the extent that it’s in the rule book that contact alone is not enough for a foul. Shaq was a great example of a guy who got constantly mugged but because he just played through it he didn’t get calls unless they were blatant (and I think of the flip side, officials saw him doing the same things he was getting done to on the other side of the court and were like “hey, if you don’t want body blocks to be a part of this game, don’t do body blocks when you’re playing defense”.

Shaq also retired 15 years ago and honestly the leg kick out thing isn’t anywhere neeeeear as annoying as what guys like Robert Horry used to do.

Back to baseball, sure, I’d be ok with a working camera led pitch caller, but sadly I don’t think we’re quite at that point yet and far more egregious to me than pitch framing or whatever are umpires using their position to enforce silly and stupid rules or even, in the case of that Angel Hernandez move last week, to cover for one obvious missed call by making another, even worse missed call that is still supposedly a judgment call and so cannot be overturned or reviewed.

Yesterday, 11:43 PM	#1
Cobra Mgr Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Parts unknown Posts: 6,373	"Pitch framing" vs "Flopping" Why is pitch framing accepted but flopping looked down upon? Both are essentially the same thing: Trying to purposefully influence the officials. In fact, I will go that framing is worse. Cause flopping in basketball can be just trying to sell a call, not make up a phantom one. Framing is fooling the ump to call a strike when it wasn't. __________________ If a man is guilty 4 what goes on inside of his mind, then let me get the electric chair 4 all my future crimes. - Prince Batdance June 7, 1958 - Apr 21, 2016

Today, 10:17 AM	#3
Ty Cobb Hall Of Famer Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Grayling, MI Posts: 3,940 Blog Entries: 66	Framing is influencing. Flopping is faking. In my opinion, neither is good...but one is a nudge to the official and the other a slap in the face. As for the morality of framing, perhaps it just balances out Angel Hernandez? __________________ “What’s the most you ever lost on a coin toss?” “Everyone is an atheist until Templars begin marching in the rain.” Absinthe makes the heart grow fonder. It is usually futile to try to talk facts and analysis to people who are enjoying a sense of moral superiority in their ignorance.—Thomas Sowell "Alinsky works for me now."

Today, 11:30 AM	#6
Cobra Mgr Hall Of Famer Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Parts unknown Posts: 6,373	Who said pitchers were doing the framing? To me, the ones who are most at fault are the refs/umps themselves. Be better. But I think both are cheap, cowardly ways to play. You're basically saying I can't beat you straight up man to man so I need to resort tricking the authority to to give me an unfair, unearned advantage. __________________ If a man is guilty 4 what goes on inside of his mind, then let me get the electric chair 4 all my future crimes. - Prince Batdance June 7, 1958 - Apr 21, 2016

Today, 11:49 AM	#7
kq76 Global Moderator Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Vancouver, Canada Posts: 10,699	I think a difference is the best pitch framing catchers (IMO, not necessarily according to any stats) are far more subtle than floppers are. For example, compare the "top 3 catchers in pitcher framing 2023" (their title, not mine) to Jose Trevino. Notice how the first 3 all often catch the ball first then jerk the ball quite noticeably from one point in space to somewhere else often far away and stop for a good second or two. Then look at Trevino. Notice how far more fluid he is. It's like he has one long arm movement and he just happens to catch the ball in the middle of that motion. And then notice how he usually (sometimes not, but usually) doesn't stop for a long while. It's like he's trusting that he's fooled the umpires instead of begging. I agree, the first 3 catchers, the "top 3", are like floppers, but Trevino is like a master assassin with how good he is. I'm all for the latter and not at all for the first 3. All more reason to bring in the balls and strikes challenge system however. __________________ My OOTP Wishlist Your Recommended Team Nicknames, By City (A Crowdsourced Project)

Today, 12:48 PM	#8
Boomcoach All Star Reserve Join Date: Nov 2017 Posts: 806	While I am not going to defend the worst examples of flopping in soccer, and I would like to see these actions punished more often than they are, I put the blame for some of the "embellishment" in soccer to the way it is officiated. If you are fouled, but play through the contact, especially in attacking areas, you are unlikely to get the foul called. So if you fight through the foul, lose the ball or end up taking a poor shot, you have hurt your team by not going to ground. The post foul theatrics are simply silly and look very stupid. __________________ Boomcoach Let's Go Crew

Today, 10:33 AM	#4
David Watts Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Looking for a place called Leehofooks Posts: 8,870	At least framing is a skill. I can't imagine how hard it is to catch a major league pitcher, but if you add in trying to do so in a way that tricks the umpire, I doubt I would ever even get the glove on the ball.