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Old 03-27-2014, 06:50 PM   #81
The Wolf
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The relative value issue is a matter of opinion at this time that only the future will settle. But I think we can all agree that it was a horrible trade.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 03-27-2014, 07:14 PM   #82
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Fister is valuable and underrated, and it was a baffling deal, but I DO think the hardcore SABR crowd goes a bit overboard with Fister - and I certainly don't think he's more valuable than Scherzer. It wasn't a good deal, but the Upton for Prado deal the year before was worse, for instance.

P.S. and yes, I know it was Prado and parts
Well, the Bleacher Report is hardly a hardcore SABR site
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Old 03-27-2014, 10:04 PM   #83
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Well, the Bleacher Report is hardly a hardcore SABR site
Sure, but I meant more Fangraphs etc.
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Old 03-28-2014, 12:17 AM   #84
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It's not just sabermetric sites.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 03-28-2014, 12:20 AM   #85
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A Tale of Two Pitchers

Pitcher A and Pitcher B are the same age and pitch for the same team.

Over the last three years Pitcher A averaged 195IP, a 3.32 ERA, a 3.23 FIP, a 3.47 xFIP and was worth 13.3 WAR.

Over the last three years Pitcher B averaged 198IP, a 3.69 ERA, a 3.38 FIP, a 3.36 xFIP and was worth 13.6 WAR.

Pitcher A was traded for a starting pitcher prospect, a middle reliever and a utility infielder. None are considered to be better than mediocre.

Pitcher B was kept and offered a six-year extension worth $144 million dollars.

Pitcher A is Doug Fister.

Pitcher B is Max Scherzer.

Please explain how this makes any sense.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 03-28-2014, 01:42 AM   #86
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A Tale of Two Pitchers

Pitcher A and Pitcher B are the same age and pitch for the same team.

Over the last three years Pitcher A averaged 195IP, a 3.32 ERA, a 3.23 FIP, a 3.47 xFIP and was worth 13.3 WAR.

Over the last three years Pitcher B averaged 198IP, a 3.69 ERA, a 3.38 FIP, a 3.36 xFIP and was worth 13.6 WAR.

Pitcher A was traded for a starting pitcher prospect, a middle reliever and a utility infielder. None are considered to be better than mediocre.

Pitcher B was kept and offered a six-year extension worth $144 million dollars.

Pitcher A is Doug Fister.

Pitcher B is Max Scherzer.

Please explain how this makes any sense.
Because people value last season more than prior seasons, which is not entirely unreasonable. Scherzer also improved in each of the last two seasons, which suggests that first season is unlikely to occur again for sometime. I'd also privilege xFIP over FIP myself.

But again, I don't have an issue with your central Doug Fister is underrated point.
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:35 AM   #87
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Because people value last season more than prior seasons, which is not entirely unreasonable. Scherzer also improved in each of the last two seasons, which suggests that first season is unlikely to occur again for sometime. I'd also privilege xFIP over FIP myself.

But again, I don't have an issue with your central Doug Fister is underrated point.
I agree about xFIP, but my point was that the difference between these two pitchers is pretty minimal, yet one is thrown in the trash heap and one is highly sought after.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 03-28-2014, 07:12 PM   #88
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Fair enough, it was a stupid trade and yesterday, that was a stupid contract.
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Old 03-28-2014, 08:47 PM   #89
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Fair enough, it was a stupid trade and yesterday, that was a stupid contract.
I wholeheartedly agree. The only upside is that soon Albert Pujols will no longer own baseball's #1 albatross contract.

Giving long-term contracts like that to aging players is just ignorant.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 03-28-2014, 08:50 PM   #90
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I wholeheartedly agree. The only upside is that soon Albert Pujols will no longer own baseball's #1 albatross contract.

Giving long-term contracts like that to aging players is just ignorant.
It's like the Tigers never noticed the Pujols contract even existed - Pujols was at least as good as Cabrera when he signed. I'd have let him walk at 33, it is painful, but you can use that money in much better ways on two or three excellent (and younger) players
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Old 03-28-2014, 09:43 PM   #91
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Back on topic, who's the worst long-term team in OOTP15? I mean, mediocre to bad now, not many prospects, maybe some bad contracts, etc. I played Houston in OOTP14 but they have too many good prospects already for my money (Correa, Singleton, Appel, Springer, DeShields, etc.) plus they're paying everyone peanuts. Who's the biggest, say, 10-year challenge in OOTP15?
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:00 PM   #92
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It's like the Tigers never noticed the Pujols contract even existed - Pujols was at least as good as Cabrera when he signed. I'd have let him walk at 33, it is painful, but you can use that money in much better ways on two or three excellent (and younger) players
Exactly right.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 03-28-2014, 10:00 PM   #93
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Back on topic, who's the worst long-term team in OOTP15? I mean, mediocre to bad now, not many prospects, maybe some bad contracts, etc. I played Houston in OOTP14 but they have too many good prospects already for my money (Correa, Singleton, Appel, Springer, DeShields, etc.) plus they're paying everyone peanuts. Who's the biggest, say, 10-year challenge in OOTP15?
Marlins.
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Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn View Post
Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

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Old 03-28-2014, 10:31 PM   #94
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I've been astonished at the amount of sleeper interest in the Marlins this year. Joe Sheehan, Albert Chen and Dave Schoenfield seems interested too. I don't see it at all.
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:32 PM   #95
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Back on topic, who's the worst long-term team in OOTP15? I mean, mediocre to bad now, not many prospects, maybe some bad contracts, etc. I played Houston in OOTP14 but they have too many good prospects already for my money (Correa, Singleton, Appel, Springer, DeShields, etc.) plus they're paying everyone peanuts. Who's the biggest, say, 10-year challenge in OOTP15?
Gotta be Philly right? Maybe even the Angels if you are thinking long term - no way that kid isn't in pinstripes in five years.
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:36 PM   #96
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Marlins.
I dunno. I think some of Miami's pitching prospects will be more highly rated in OOTP15. Their position prospects are probably slightly worse in OOTP15, but they're also closer to the majors (some already reached the majors) and thus have a higher floor. Stanton is probably worse in OOTP15 than 14, as he might now be "Fragile" and have a lower contact rating. But still. Stanton, man. Stanton. If a few of the veterans the Marlins signed this offseason do well as you approach the trade deadline, you can probably trade them for more decent prospects as well.

In the hands of Jeffrey Loria, I don't have high hopes for the Marlins' future. But in the hands of an OOTP player who is seriously trying to win, I think it could go quite well, and only take two or three years.

I think the worst team/organization will be the Brewers. Farm system is barren, Braun is over 30. They're a team with a rapidly-closing window and little help in sight.
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:42 PM   #97
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I think the worst team/organization will be the Brewers. Farm system is barren, Braun is over 30. They're a team with a rapidly-closing window and little help in sight.
You can still get something for Ramirez to a contender (Yankees?) and an enormous haul for Gomez if you want to focus on the farm.

Gomez is one of the most valuable players in baseball - he's arguably the best defensive outfielder in the game, even if he only gets on base at a .320 clip, he's still hitting 20 home runs a year. He's arguably the best stolen base threat in baseball outside of Hamilton too - last four years he's averaging 38 steals per 162 at an 84% success rate. And he's at his peak at 28.

Lucroy is one of the best 3-4 catchers in baseball and is 27.

Juan Segura just posted a WAR over 3 at 24.

Khris Davis has exciting potential.

Plenty of possibilities here

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Old 03-28-2014, 10:47 PM   #98
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You can still get something for Ramirez to a contender (Yankees?) and an enormous haul for Gomez (28) if you want to focus on the farm. Lucroy is one of the best 3-4 catchers in baseball and is 27. Plenty of possibilities there
Seconded.
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Well, the average OOTP user...downloads the game, manages his favorite team and that's it.
According to OOTP itself, OOTP MLB play (modern and historical) outnumbers OOTP fictional play three to one.

Five thousand thanks for a non-modder? I never thought I'd see the day. Thank you for your support.
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Old 03-28-2014, 10:59 PM   #99
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White Sox? Indians? Cleveland is a smaller market, right?
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Old 03-29-2014, 03:45 AM   #100
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Gotta be Philly right? Maybe even the Angels if you are thinking long term - no way that kid isn't in pinstripes in five years.
Uhh...ok, six, after this contract, when he gets three times 144 mil at 29
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