Players are more than numbers

[Boomcoach]

I was reading this article about a trade in the MLS and it reminded me of something that I know I, and others often forget.

I think people have a tendency to forget, when discussing sports figures, that these are real people, with families and social groups, not just digital entities traipsing around on the television for our entertainment.

I see this, not only in the uprooting of people and families through trades, but when people grouse about players not willing to put their bodies on the line enough for us, while we sit on out butts watching them on TV. "Football has gotten too soft." "He needs a fastball to the head next time, that will teach him not to do x, y or z"

In my daily life, most of us would not wish serious harm or risk of injury on anyone, but on when it comes to sports, we want that guy hit with a pitch because he didn't run in a manner that we prefer. So what if it injures him and costs him a few weeks or months on the DL, we didn't really want that to happen, it was just bad luck, after all. So what if the receiver gets carted off. Unless he is on our fantasy team, or plays for our favorite team, once he is off the field he is out of sight, out of mind.

Just something to think about. As I get older, I find myself getting more and more annoyed at people who don't give a %#$@ about the person involved, all they care about is how it affects their entertainment. And every time I get annoyed at someone for this, I also have to hang my head a bit at earlier versions of myself, who thought the same way.

[Cobra Mgr]

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Boomcoach

I was reading this article about a trade in the MLS and it reminded me of something that I know I, and others often forget.

First of all, let me start off by saying I do not like seeing anyone get hurt no matter what their profession. Outside that, let me tell you why I couldn't give a rodent's posterior about players in regards to their lives or what they eat for breakfast.

Originally Posted by Boomcoach

I think people have a tendency to forget, when discussing sports figures, that these are real people, with families and social groups, not just digital entities traipsing around on the television for our entertainment.

Agreed. First and foremost I am a fan of a team. Their success matters to me. I don't care one iota in regards to players on that team and their lives anymore than I would anyone else I don't know. I hope they're happy and tragedy doesn't befall them.

Originally Posted by Boomcoach

I see this, not only in the uprooting of people and families through trades, but when people grouse about players not willing to put their bodies on the line enough for us, while we sit on out butts watching them on TV. "Football has gotten too soft." "He needs a fastball to the head next time, that will teach him not to do x, y or z"

Besides the bold, which I find extremely distasteful, the rest is par for the course. I couldn't possibly care less if these guys are uprooted through trades. This isn't the 60's and 70's where players played for the love of the game and winning. These players first priority is getting paid the most possible. They're more than willing to uproot themselves if not paid top market value in their opinion. I'm supposed to feel something for them when they get traded? Miami to Pittsburgh or Minnesota always gives me a chuckle. Don't forget a coat.

As for putting their bodies on the line, yes, that's what I expect from those making that much money if it can give their team a better chance to win. We expect that from police officers firefighters, lifeguards, military, the list goes on, and they don't get paid nearly as much. I put my life on the line when I work out on a roadway with little protection. It's not only professions that are life and death. These players get paid millions. Is it a surprise that I would want them to earn it?

Originally Posted by Boomcoach

Just something to think about. As I get older, I find myself getting more and more annoyed at people who don't give a %#$@ about the person involved, all they care about is how it affects their entertainment. And every time I get annoyed at someone for this, I also have to hang my head a bit at earlier versions of myself, who thought the same way.

It's not about my entertainment. It's about what I expect from someone that plays for a team I love. Do you think when these guys cry when they get drafted it's because of the love of the game? It's because they believe they hit the lottery. Well ok then, earn it on the field.

[Déjà Bru]

I agree with OP's sentiments but I don't understand the leap from the subject of the linked article to whether we should "wish serious harm or risk of injury on anyone" (we should not and this winning at all costs mentality that we have these days does indeed "forget, when discussing sports figures, that these are real people").

The player in the article has merely been traded, albeit unexpectedly. When a person plays professional sports and is in a situation where a trade is allowable, he or she must always be aware of the possibility. It is part of the deal.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

First of all, let me start off by saying I do not like seeing anyone get hurt no matter what their profession. Outside that, let me tell you why I couldn't give a rodent's posterior about players in regards to their lives or what they eat for breakfast.



Agreed. First and foremost I am a fan of a team. Their success matters to me. I don't care one iota in regards to players on that team and their lives anymore than I would anyone else I don't know. I hope they're happy and tragedy doesn't befall them.



Besides the bold, which I find extremely distasteful, the rest is par for the course. I couldn't possibly care less if these guys are uprooted through trades. This isn't the 60's and 70's where players played for the love of the game and winning. These players first priority is getting paid the most possible. They're more than willing to uproot themselves if not paid top market value in their opinion. I'm supposed to feel something for them when they get traded? Miami to Pittsburgh or Minnesota always gives me a chuckle. Don't forget a coat.

As for putting their bodies on the line, yes, that's what I expect from those making that much money if it can give their team a better chance to win. We expect that from police officers firefighters, lifeguards, military, the list goes on, and they don't get paid nearly as much. I put my life on the line when I work out on a roadway with little protection. It's not only professions that are life and death. These players get paid millions. Is it a surprise that I would want them to earn it?




It's not about my entertainment. It's about what I expect from someone that plays for a team I love. Do you think when these guys cry when they get drafted it's because of the love of the game? It's because they believe they hit the lottery. Well ok then, earn it on the field.

I find your post excessively cold.

1. Boomcoach is not saying "poor athlete" if they get traded. He's saying he is empathetic to the hardship that kind of life lends itself to.

2. You are generalizing the situation. Not every player leaves when his contract is up because he wants to. Especially in the NFL. They get cut even if there are years on the deal left. And some had every intent on staying with one team. Why else would some negotiate no trade clauses? There are some who even retire instead of going where they are traded because they don't want to uproot their family. Yeah, there are plenty that just want you to show them the money. But don't loop them all in the same mold.

3. Just because some civil servants put their bodies on the line doesn't mean the pain they endure is of no consequence. I don't want soldiers to come back w/one less limb to protect others freedom. I don't want policemen taking bullets to protect the public. I don't want firemen to endure 1st degree burn to protect property. Even if that is what they potentially are getting paid for. And I don't think it nothing for a player to get injured in order to prevent a score. I want, and EXPECT, policemen, soldiers, firemen & players to look out for themselves in carry out their jobs. I don't expect them to behave recklessly just because they are getting a salary.

We are all human and get one life. Their lives and well being isn't worth less than mine just because they are getting paid for my entertainment and well being.

I don't think you meant to come off as cold as you did. But if you proofread what you wrote, I think you would honestly say it was a bit harsh.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

I agree with OP's sentiments but I don't understand the leap from the subject of the linked article to whether we should "wish serious harm or risk of injury on anyone" (we should not and this winning at all costs mentality that we have these days does indeed "forget, when discussing sports figures, that these are real people").

The player in the article has merely been traded, albeit unexpectedly. When a person plays professional sports and is in a situation where a trade is allowable, he or she must always be aware of the possibility. It is part of the deal.

Boom is only saying the article brought those thoughts to mind. He never intimated what happened was somehow morally wrong. He was just reminded it isn't always peaches & cream.

[Déjà Bru]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

Boom is only saying the article brought those thoughts to mind. He never intimated what happened was somehow morally wrong. He was just reminded it isn't always peaches & cream.

Granted. Yet, if I could roll back the clock and be Walker Zimmerman, playing a game that I love and getting paid . . . decently if not handsomely, I think I would take that deal in a heartbeat, trade or no trade.

I do agree with your assessment of Ragnar's post. I was going to say something myself, but chose to remain low profile in these precincts these days. Kudos to you for calling him to account.

[Cobra Mgr]

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

Granted. Yet, if I could roll back the clock and be Walker Zimmerman, playing a game that I love and getting paid . . . decently if not handsomely, I think I would take that deal in a heartbeat, trade or no trade.

I do agree with your assessment of Ragnar's post. I was going to say something myself, but chose to remain low profile in these precincts these days. Kudos to you for calling him to account.

Understood. I find rangar to be one of the more reasonable people on this forum. I think the thoughts he expressed were out of character. So I wouldn't put it as "calling to account". I just think he would re-word it if he gave it a 2nd thought.

[rudel.dietrich]

I think in any situation it is good to remind yourself that when you watch sports, read the news or watch TV that actual human beings are being affected.
I am not perfect but I try to do this every so often.
When I read about the outbreak of virus in China I try and keep myself grounded and remember that these are not just statistics that keep ticking upwards but tens of thousands of real people who are getting sick and are terrified and also almost 100 million people who are quarantined in Central China and have travel restrictions placed on them and are also terrified.

Modern athletes lead good lives and are well taken care of but are people.
Several in recent years have opened up about mental health issues that have affected them and those are always the stories that make me step back and realize that these are normal human beings that just happen to have top 0.1% athletic talent.

But I think a lot of this is from the Astros thread and there are some pretty boneheaded curmudgeon opinions in that thread.
And that kind of thinking is the reason most people under 40 don't give a **** about baseball. And maybe it's for the better.
If the 'fastball to the head' crowd wants to take the game to their grave then baseball as a major sport will also head towards it's own grave.

[Déjà Bru]

I may have questioned the trigger, but this thead is turning into a good one.

[Antonin]

Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich

...Modern athletes lead good lives and are well taken care of but are people.
Several in recent years have opened up about mental health issues that have affected them and those are always the stories that make me step back and realize that these are normal human beings that just happen to have top 0.1% athletic talent...

In the book "Soccernomics" there is an extended discussion of how many football (soccer) teams, modern in every other way, completely blow it when it comes to bringing in new players and making it possible for them to be successful. They just assume that paying a guy a lot of money is enough, and that he should just arrive and "get on with it." Players get bounced around from one country to another, sometimes arriving at their new team with no idea of where they should live, how to get a driver's license, where to buy groceries, etc.

The teams don't consider how the wife/girlfriend will fit in to a new community, how the children will take it, etc. Of course, if the wife/girlfriend/children are not happy, how can the player be expected to perform at the level the team and the fans expect?

The discussion in the book applied mainly to the big European teams. I don't know what, if any, policies MLS has on how to deal with the human aspect of trades.

I think many, if not most, NBA teams have staff whose job it is to get the families of traded or newly signed players settled in.

And I'm very happy to see the NBA paying more attention these days to mental health issues among its players. I know our own Kevin Love has been very open about his struggles, as have other players. I was surprised, to be honest, that they have received so much support from their teammates and from the league.

[rudel.dietrich]

Originally Posted by Antonin

In the book "Soccernomics" there is an extended discussion of how many football (soccer) teams, modern in every other way, completely blow it when it comes to bringing in new players and making it possible for them to be successful. They just assume that paying a guy a lot of money is enough, and that he should just arrive and "get on with it." Players get bounced around from one country to another, sometimes arriving at their new team with no idea of where they should live, how to get a driver's license, where to buy groceries, etc.

The teams don't consider how the wife/girlfriend will fit in to a new community, how the children will take it, etc. Of course, if the wife/girlfriend/children are not happy, how can the player be expected to perform at the level the team and the fans expect?

The discussion in the book applied mainly to the big European teams. I don't know what, if any, policies MLS has on how to deal with the human aspect of trades.

I think many, if not most, NBA teams have staff whose job it is to get the families of traded or newly signed players settled in.

And I'm very happy to see the NBA paying more attention these days to mental health issues among its players. I know our own Kevin Love has been very open about his struggles, as have other players. I was surprised, to be honest, that they have received so much support from their teammates and from the league.

That is a great book but was written in 2009. I work in sports economics and these days many of the top clubs do in fact have people on staff to help new players settle.
From intensive language classes, to helping them and their families buy or rent a house or flat. Helping their children enroll in school, helping them find a church, temple or mosque etc

And now many of the mid level clubs are using third party services to help players settle in.
It is still not perfect but in the 10 years since the book came out clubs have begun to realize that is one way they can help big money signings not fail.

And I am not surprised that the NBA was that accepting of players who spoke out. There were literally dozens who said 'I am glad he spoke out because at one time or another I have felt the same way or I have had someone in my life who went through that'
Many of these athletes grow up in lower class families and come from some rough backgrounds. It is not at all surprising that they suffer from anxiety, depression and other issues at the same rate as the rest of the population.

One of the big moments for me to see athletes as people was a great piece on Larry Sanders by Vice Media
https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/3...-larry-sanders


He pretty much walked away from the game at age 27 due to mental health issues, not wanting to play anymore, other interests and mounting fines and suspensions for drug use.
I remember his last few seasons with Milwaukee being very frustrated with him wondering how someone of that size with that athleticism and talent could waste it by having a poor work ethic and suspensions for marijuana use.
I have zero issues with marijuana but if your being paid for a job and your job does not allow it then either don't use it or find a new job.

I was younger then and never stopped to think, maybe he is using the drug to mask something else?

Turns out that he was. Anxiety, severe depression and at times wanting to die.
He is also highly intelligent and someone who if he was not 6'11 and an insanely good athlete probably never would have entered basketball in the first place. He never really loved the game but always felt like he should be playing it because of his size.

It got me thinking about people in a different light.

[Déjà Bru]

I thought of this thread just now, after viewing video of that horrendous crash at Daytona.

[Cobra Mgr]

It amazes me no one has been killed in that sport since Sr.

[Westheim]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

It amazes me no one has been killed in that sport since Sr.

Well, the cars are like tanks. Except when hit from the top at 200mph.

Originally Posted by Déjà Bru

I thought of this thread just now, after viewing video of that horrendous crash at Daytona.

That was five hours, including four hours of the most uneasy sleep, ago. I am about ready to call in sick, because that one rocked my ass.

As far as I remember, I've never seen a guy get killed right on camera and when they said there was silence on the radio my stomach dropped 20 feet because I thought I had run **** outta luck. I didn't yet watch F1 in '94 f.e., and I didn't see the 2001 Daytona 500 either (NASCAR wasn't on live in Germany back then). Jules Bianchi doesn't really count, since he didn't die until about a year later.

But this one was absolutely ghastly. Live, and in slow motion. It was nowhere near the worst NASCAR crash in recent memory, but they usually clamber out of what remains of the car, brush off the splinters, and wave to the crowd. That part of the video went missing last night. It wasn't right. It just wasn't right and both live and in slow motion it rocked my ass at 2am in the ****ing morning.

No, I'm not okay, and no, the players/drivers are not ****ing numbers.

[Ragnar]

Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr

I find your post excessively cold.

1. Boomcoach is not saying "poor athlete" if they get traded. He's saying he is empathetic to the hardship that kind of life lends itself to.

2. You are generalizing the situation. Not every player leaves when his contract is up because he wants to. Especially in the NFL. They get cut even if there are years on the deal left. And some had every intent on staying with one team. Why else would some negotiate no trade clauses? There are some who even retire instead of going where they are traded because they don't want to uproot their family. Yeah, there are plenty that just want you to show them the money. But don't loop them all in the same mold.

3. Just because some civil servants put their bodies on the line doesn't mean the pain they endure is of no consequence. I don't want soldiers to come back w/one less limb to protect others freedom. I don't want policemen taking bullets to protect the public. I don't want firemen to endure 1st degree burn to protect property. Even if that is what they potentially are getting paid for. And I don't think it nothing for a player to get injured in order to prevent a score. I want, and EXPECT, policemen, soldiers, firemen & players to look out for themselves in carry out their jobs. I don't expect them to behave recklessly just because they are getting a salary.

We are all human and get one life. Their lives and well being isn't worth less than mine just because they are getting paid for my entertainment and well being.

I don't think you meant to come off as cold as you did. But if you proofread what you wrote, I think you would honestly say it was a bit harsh.

I don't disagree with you. And yes, I was generalizing. I fully realize they are not all like I described. But IMO the vast majority are, and that's the reason I was speaking as if I lumped them all together.

I don't empathize with them in regards to getting cut, moved to another state, or being pressured to actually earn what they are being paid to do. I have empathy for animals. For your regular person that loses their job. And as far as athletes are concerned, any time one gets an injury that is serious. I never want to see that. But as far as people making millions of dollars, they can take care of themselves. I expect them to make decisions that are in their best interest.

[Skipaway]

Free agency is not a problem, since players have a say in location.

Drafts and trades are both problematic, and abnormal for the labor market. I think they should get rid of those, or at least give all players the right to reject.

[dkgo]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

Agreed. First and foremost I am a fan of a team. Their success matters to me. I don't care one iota in regards to players on that team and their lives anymore than I would anyone else I don't know. I hope they're happy and tragedy doesn't befall them.

If you don't care at all about the players, you are basically just a fan of the laundry which seems very strange

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by Ragnar

I don't empathize with them in regards to getting cut, moved to another state, or being pressured to actually earn what they are being paid to do. I have empathy for animals. For your regular person that loses their job. And as far as athletes are concerned, any time one gets an injury that is serious. I never want to see that. But as far as people making millions of dollars, they can take care of themselves. I expect them to make decisions that are in their best interest.

But what if athletes are regular people?
And what if an athlete getting cut is a regular person losing their job?

And why wouldn't you empathize with a parent whose job forced them to uproot their kids' life? Or a spouse who had to give up their life for their partner's?

And why on Earth would you chuckle when someone had to choose between continuing their career or moving somewhere, possibly cold, where they didn't want to be?

Remember, there are millions, perhaps billions, of people around the world who would snap up your job in an instant and not complain about whatever it is that you complain about at work.

[CBeisbol]

Originally Posted by dkgo

If you don't care at all about the players, you are basically just a fan of the laundry which seems very strange

Strange in what way?

It probably describes the vast majority of fans. Fans largely root for teams and not players.

I really only follow one sport and am a fan of one team.

I don't go out of my way to learn about the players. The same way I don't, usually, go out of my way to learn about the lives of anyone else I don't know personally. Sometimes I become aware of that stuff. Like I have a pretty negative view of Aubrey Huff and think he needs to get some help. But, I don't seek it out.

But whether it's the gas station attendant or the backup catcher, I can feel empathy for them as a fellow human being when something goes wrong for them personally, their job treats them poorly, or they are forced to make a difficult decision regarding their job/family.

If the gas station attendant has to start working the night shift (perhaps similar to moving from Miami to Minnesota) I can understand that impacts their life (maybe for the better, maybe for the worse) even if I'm not interested in that they ate for breakfast