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Old 11-21-2019, 09:09 AM   #21
pilight
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThatSeventiesGuy View Post
Vizquel: Yeah, I'd put him in. Ozzie with a better bat, pretty much.
Except that he wasn't Ozzie Smith on defense nor did he have a better bat.
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Old 11-21-2019, 09:59 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by pilight View Post
Except that he wasn't Ozzie Smith on defense nor did he have a better bat.
Yeah, Vizquel is in the "hall of very good who I could squint and consider for the hall of fame but man if we let him in then we have a big problem with how wide we're making this".
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:38 PM   #23
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Yeah, Vizquel is in the "hall of very good who I could squint and consider for the hall of fame but man if we let him in then we have a big problem with how wide we're making this".
It is completely bizarre to me that Vizquel gets a high vote total while other guys who were elite glove guys at their positions, and could actually hit, are left completely stranded in the wilderness. Omar Vizquel was a terrible hitter, and a great fielder. In the meantime, Larry Walker, Scott Rolen, Andruw Jones, Todd Helton are languishing on the ballot saying: "Yo! Um...Over here...Little help here?" They were great fielders at their positions too, and they were all far better hitters than Vizquel, so where's the love for them? Where's the love for the countless great glove, damn good hitter guys, or the great all around players who didn't particularly specialize in one area of the game, but were just very good at everything, that have already fallen off the ballot who don't happen to play 2B or SS? Ridiculous.

My ten (in alphabetical order):

Bobby Abreu (right on my borderline - a much better player than anyone will give him credit for, but it still might not be enough)

Barry Bonds

Roger Clemens

Todd Helton

Derek Jeter

Andruw Jones

Scott Rolen

Curt Schilling

Billy Wagner

Larry Walker

My position on the PED guys (and strongly suspected ones) is to take their numbers at face value, and evaluate them on that basis. However, if I have others that I feel deserve to be on my ballot, I won't hesitate to bump a suspected guy off in favour of a guy who had very little suspicion. The whole era is extremely difficult to evaluate because of the uneven playing field, and not knowing with absolute certainty who was doing what, but I still believe that the only proper course of action is to take the numbers at face value. What sort of adjustments do you make for potential steroid use? It would be nice to have an unlimited ballot, because a HoFer is a HoFer is a HoFer. I believe the limit for the HoF ballot was set when there were about 400 players in MLB at any given time in a season. There may have been fewer than 400 players, as I'm not sure what the roster limits were back in the day, but the maximum number would've been 400. Last season, that number was 750, and this coming season it will be 780. That's twice as many players in the league. Time for an update no?

Despite my position on the players who used PEDs, I will find it very difficult to watch Bonds' and Clemens' induction ceremonies should they come to pass. I realize there are already PED users in the Hall. That is inevitable, but we're almost 100% sure that they did it, and that the effects on their numbers were dramatic. Were they HoFers before they started? Should that matter? Do you evaluate strictly by career totals? How will their HoF peers feel? Anyone who says this is a black and white issue is missing the immense amount of grey within it in my books. Just one fan's opinion though.
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Last edited by actionjackson; 11-22-2019 at 11:27 AM.
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:43 PM   #24
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I can't follow the reasoning that has someone vote for Vizquel and not Jones
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:49 PM   #25
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I can't follow the reasoning that has someone vote for Vizquel and not Jones
It seems to have been the bias for great glove guys over the years, but only if they play second base and shortstop. Offensive numbers be damned, he was a great defender, and is therefore a HoFer. At all other positions it seems to be damn the defensive numbers, all that matters is offense. Of course there are also massive inconsistencies within that framework because the voting was done by human beings with very different opinions on what constitutes greatness. In other words, anything goes, even if it doesn't necessarily make any sense.
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:52 PM   #26
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Sixth all time in saves.

Lifetime ERA+ of 187.

Lifetime ERA OF 2.31

Lifetime SO:W ratio 3.99:1.

Lifetime WHIP of 0.998, over 853 games. This value is BETTER than Mariano Rivera's.

You, sir, need to learn just a little bit more about baseball.
Agree completely on Wagner, but there's no reason to put down somebody else's baseball smarts because they disagree with us is there?
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Old 11-21-2019, 12:55 PM   #27
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Agree completely on Wagner, but there's no reason to put down somebody else's baseball smarts because they disagree with us is there?
Of course, Buster Cherry's comment on Wagner was pretty damned snarky, so I can kind of see the reason for your response.
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:01 PM   #28
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Jeter will be the only inductee this year. If Jones had a ring or two I would say yes but he doesnt
A ring or two? So we're basing a player's worthiness on the quality of his teammates, and his teams' luck over the years in the crapshoot that is the postseason? Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to disagree with it. Hey I know! Let's start a petition...Ted Williams should be removed from the HoF! Cheeky? Absolutely, but so is the notion of championships having much to do with a player's worthiness for the honour. Just one opinion mind you.
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:34 PM   #29
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A ring or two? So we're basing a player's worthiness on the quality of his teammates, and his teams' luck over the years in the crapshoot that is the postseason? Of course, you're entitled to your opinion, and I'm entitled to disagree with it. Hey I know! Let's start a petition...Ted Williams should be removed from the HoF! Cheeky? Absolutely, but so is the notion of championships having much to do with a player's worthiness for the honour. Just one opinion mind you.
While I do agree that rings shouldn't matter for the MLB Hall of Fame. I feel as though, with Jeter, they play apart just because he was one of the most well known Captains in the League. I'm a Yankee fan so yeah I am biased.

I do feel though that postseason play should be a part of the package. Take for example Verlander and Kershaw. I do feel their post season resumes will keep them in the low 90's for vote total as it is a blemish.
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:46 PM   #30
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Postseason success should very well be part of the equation. But it shouldn't be the only part of the equation, nor the only stat that gets one started on the equation.
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Old 11-21-2019, 01:53 PM   #31
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While I do agree that rings shouldn't matter for the MLB Hall of Fame.
That's going too far the other way. Rings should count, but they shouldn't be the only thing that counts.
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Old 11-21-2019, 06:46 PM   #32
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That's going too far the other way. Rings should count, but they shouldn't be the only thing that counts.

That's what I'm saying. Jones is border line enough the rings may matter.
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:16 PM   #33
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While I do agree that rings shouldn't matter for the MLB Hall of Fame. I feel as though, with Jeter, they play apart just because he was one of the most well known Captains in the League. I'm a Yankee fan so yeah I am biased.

I do feel though that postseason play should be a part of the package. Take for example Verlander and Kershaw. I do feel their post season resumes will keep them in the low 90's for vote total as it is a blemish.
Jeter doesn't need any help from his rings. He's easily over the line even without taking a postseason at bat and playing with the Marlins (or Paducha, KY if they had a team) for his entire career.

I just don't want to see Pettitte, Williams, and Posada dragged into the Hall because of their rings. There's definitely a debate to be had with Pettitte's candidacy, but Williams' and Posada's careers don't pass the smell test for enshrinement for this fan. I would fall on the "no" side with Pettitte, but I can see why others feel he belongs. I just don't think a guy should be faulted for his GMs' ineptitude, or playing with a small market team. That's my only point.

Yes, the ring is the thing for a team. It should be the goal every season for every team, but I'm not sure how much it says about the quality of one individual player's career.
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Old 11-21-2019, 08:35 PM   #34
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That's what I'm saying. Jones is border line enough the rings may matter.
Jones is in the conversation for greatest defensive centre fielder of all-time. So, he has the defensive component in spades. He's definitely a glove first player, who should be getting way more consideration than he is because he could hit better than most of the glove first guys in the Hall. I don't see how he could even be on the borderline. He's easily in for me. That's the beauty of it though. We all have our own ideas of what constitutes a HoFer.
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Old 11-21-2019, 10:15 PM   #35
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I continue to be amazed @ Edgar Martinez's residence in Cooperstown while Andruw needs a ticket to get in.
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:40 AM   #36
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I continue to be amazed @ Edgar Martinez's residence in Cooperstown while Andruw needs a ticket to get in.
For me, Edgar's an easy HoFer. He was an absolute monster at the plate, and must've haunted many pitchers' dreams. People forget that he was a very good glove man at 3B when he first came up, but injuries forced him to DH. .312/.418/.515/.933, 147 OPS+, walked more times than he struck out. He could hit for average, he could get on base, he could hit for power (more line drive, line to line power, but still a big threat), and when you're walking more times than you strike out, and you only retired fifteen years ago, you are one hell of a hitter.

Also: Career vs Mariano Rivera: 23 PA (Extremely Small Sample Size...but...wait for it), 19 AB (wait for it), 11 H, 3 2B, 2 HR, 6 RBI, 3 BB, 4 K. Rivera has often spoken about how thankful he was when Edgar retired. Also:

"The toughest guy I faced I think - with all due respect to all the players in the league - was Edgar Martinez. He had to make me throw at least 13 fastballs above 95...Edgar was a guy that had the ability to foul off pitches, and it pissed me off because I couldn't get the guy out."

- Pedro Martinez

and:

"Edgar Martinez - one of the greatest right handed hitters who ever lived...Just an incredible hitter, a guy who had such great balance, knew the strike zone so well...He could hit more home runs if he wanted to, but he was an all-around hitter; he wasn't trying to go deep. The guys that were playing then know how great he is."

- Dennis Eckersley

and finally:

"Edgar was clearly one of the best right-handed hitters anybody ever saw. He had no weaknesses. There was no one place to pitch Edgar. He was very smart. He made great adjustments, and he had great skills."

- David Cone

I see your point about a lack of games in the field, but I think you're picking on the wrong dude here, because this guy could flat out rake.
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Old 11-22-2019, 01:03 AM   #37
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For me, Edgar's an easy HoFer......
I see your point about a lack of games in the field, but I think you're picking on the wrong dude here, because this guy could flat out rake.

I'm not downing Edgar. I'm just pointing out the hypocrisy of putting in an offense only player, but being hesitant to put in an all-time great defensive one. Edgar's numbers may be good, but they are not close to being all-time good. If they can find a way to put in a DH, they should find a way to get Druw on more than 10% of the ballots.
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Old 11-22-2019, 02:27 AM   #38
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NL guys hate Edgar. AL guys love him, it's as simple as that.

In a discussion for another day, the DH needs to go for good.
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Old 11-22-2019, 10:48 AM   #39
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Agree completely on Wagner, but there's no reason to put down somebody else's baseball smarts because they disagree with us is there?
I dunno, if a guy is using a dubiously viewed high school game as reasoning for why someone shouldn't be in the hall of fame I think it's fair to call into question the intelligence of that argument.

As far as Rivera vs Wagner
They were about equal on a per inning basis.
Wagner: 54 ERA-, 63 FIP-, 63 xFIP-
Rivera: 49 ERA-, 62 FIP-, 69 xFIP-

But Rivera had almost 400 more innings plus more than 100 additional post season innings.

Wagner might have been as good of a pitcher as Rivera, but he doesn't have as strong of a Hall of Fame case

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Old 11-22-2019, 11:06 AM   #40
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The two, so far, ballots that have added Jeter for this year while removing guys they voted for last year are....questionable.

Would be....something....to hear those voters' reasoning as to why the players fell of their ballots.
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