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Old 11-22-2019, 11:36 AM   #41
CBeisbol
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Originally Posted by monkeyman576 View Post
NL guys hate Edgar. AL guys love him, it's as simple as that.
I'm an NL guy
Who prefers non-DH baseball
Who thinks the NL basically has to adopt the DH
Who is on the fence with Martinez

Simple
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Old 11-22-2019, 11:49 AM   #42
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Yeah, Vizquel is in the "hall of very good who I could squint and consider for the hall of fame but man if we let him in then we have a big problem with how wide we're making this".
I could squint and consider him for the hall of very good. He's solidly in my hall of good.

He only had one season, 1999, where he was definitely very good. Typically, he was a good, 3 WAR, player.
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:11 PM   #43
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I dunno, if a guy is using a dubiously viewed high school game as reasoning for why someone shouldn't be in the hall of fame I think it's fair to call into question the intelligence of that argument.
I saw Kevin Brown pitch several times when he was in high school. He was practically unhittable every time. That doesn't make him any more or less of a hall of famer.
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Old 11-22-2019, 04:57 PM   #44
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I saw Kevin Brown pitch several times when he was in high school. He was practically unhittable every time. That doesn't make him any more or less of a hall of famer.
This is a guy I think should be in. He's in both the Hall of Stats and the Hall of Merit, two Halls that I have far more respect for than the heavily politicized Cooperstown version. This is despite the fact that he always seemed to be a bit of an a-hole. He'd have plenty of company in that department in Cooperstown.
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Old 11-22-2019, 05:25 PM   #45
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This is a guy I think should be in. He's in both the Hall of Stats and the Hall of Merit, two Halls that I have far more respect for than the heavily politicized Cooperstown version. This is despite the fact that he always seemed to be a bit of an a-hole. He'd have plenty of company in that department in Cooperstown.
The Mitchell report ended his candidacy before it even began.

He was extremely intense when he was playing. Since retirement he's moved back to Middle Georgia and by all accounts has mellowed out considerably.
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Old 11-23-2019, 04:43 AM   #46
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MLB Hall of Fame always intrigues me, you have players like Edgar Martinez being voted in for playing a 1/3 of the game didn't pitch, pretty much didn't field, only hit did he even own a glove the last 10 years of his career? Then you have multi gold gloves who were decent with the bat but aren't looked at favourably because they didn't hit the cover off the ball but still played 2/3 of the game, fielding and hitting. Then you have ballparks, a football field is a football field but a ballpark can be a hitters or pitchers park, then throw in the mound, juiced balls, juiced players makes you wonder what a HoF player should be.
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Old 11-23-2019, 05:09 AM   #47
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Edgar only got in on his last chance, so it's not like there wasn't a healthy debate.
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Old 11-23-2019, 12:08 PM   #48
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MLB Hall of Fame always intrigues me, you have players like Edgar Martinez being voted in for playing a 1/3 of the game didn't pitch, pretty much didn't field, only hit did he even own a glove the last 10 years of his career? Then you have multi gold gloves who were decent with the bat but aren't looked at favourably because they didn't hit the cover off the ball but still played 2/3 of the game, fielding and hitting. Then you have ballparks, a football field is a football field but a ballpark can be a hitters or pitchers park, then throw in the mound, juiced balls, juiced players makes you wonder what a HoF player should be.
This "1/3 of the game" breakdown, is pretty misleading. Kinda like when someone shows a red and blue map of the US and says, "A tiny minority of Democrats are trying to control the majority" while ignoring that most of the people actually live in the blue areas. No one is voting for a terrible hitting NL pitcher over an AL pitcher because the NL guy played 100% of the game and the AL pitcher only played 2/3.

Plus, hitting, pitching and fielding *aren't* the only facets of the game. I mean baserunning says, "hello". So, he's at least up to 2/4 now, right?

If a guy produces enough just hitting, or pitching, or playing defense, or running the bases to be a hall of famer, he's a hall of famer.

It'd be foolish to knock Mariano Rivera because he didn't hit. It's equally foolish to knock Martinez for not playing defense (even though, if course, he actually did play defense - a lot more than Rivera came to the plate).

That said, of course Mariano would have been a better player if he'd also hit .300/.400/.500 for 500 PA's a season. And Martinez would have been a better player if he'd provided gold glove level defense for an extra decade. But you don't *knock* a player for not doing it. You just don't credit them. And it's harder to be a hall of famer just off of hitting (and baserunning) than it is to be one who also provided defensive value.

Note; Martinez and Rivera would both be very bubble players for me.

Last edited by CBeisbol; 11-23-2019 at 01:07 PM.
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Old 11-23-2019, 01:38 PM   #49
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It'd be foolish to knock Mariano Rivera because he didn't hit. It's equally foolish to knock Martinez for not playing defense (even though, if course, he actually did play defense - a lot more than Rivera came to the plate).
Well, no, those aren't equivalent. Rivera is compared to other pitchers. Martinez is compared to players who played in the field as well as hitting.
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Old 11-23-2019, 03:37 PM   #50
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Well, no, those aren't equivalent. Rivera is compared to other pitchers. Martinez is compared to players who played in the field as well as hitting.
They should all be compared to each other no?

How about guys who pitched and hit? Ruth, Ohtani, Ankiel, Carl Mays, Claude Hendix? Are they only compared to other guys who pitched and hit?
Compared 1/3 to pitchers and 2/3 to hitters? Whatever that might mean?
Should DH league pitchers only be compared to DH league pitchers and non-DH league pitchers be compared to non-DH league pitchers? Then that about guys who switched? Or went back and forth? Or the league switched on them?

And if you're only comparing pitchers to pitchers and position players to position players (as if pitcher isn't a position) why not just compare DH's to DH's? And pinch runners to pinch runners? Etc...

Ludicrous, right?

Compare players to players

If one player was a hall of famer because he kept the opponent from scoring because of his pitching but never helped his team score and another guy was a hall of famer because he helped his team score a lot but never did a single thing to prevent the other team from scoring, then they are both hall of famers not because of how they compare to other players who did the same thing they did, but because of how they compare to other baseball players.
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