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View Poll Results: Should Known/Accused/Speculation Of Taking Steroid Users Go Into The HOF?
Yes 34 59.65%
No 23 40.35%
Voters: 57. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 01-24-2014, 08:59 AM   #61
David Watts
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Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange View Post
Attendance (and more importantly revenue) was already recovering from the 1994-95 strike before the McGuire-Sosa home run race of 1998. So the idea that steroids (or PEDs in general) were necessary wouldn't seem to be borne out by the attendance and revenue data.
So in your eyes the whole thing started with the McGwire-Sosa race of 1998? Baseball had become obsessed with 61 way prior to that one season. Heck the strike season it was Matt Williams that was going to break it.

Last edited by David Watts; 01-24-2014 at 09:39 AM.
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Old 01-24-2014, 09:37 AM   #62
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Sammy Sosa. Jose Valentin, Jim Parque, Marvin Bernard, Jeremy Giambi to name a few. Greenie give you energy but do not make you stronger, steroids do both.
Wait you said that steroids took people from bench warmers to potential HOFers, and then THIS is the list of players you use as an example?

Let's skip Sosa for a moment...

You consider 'Jose Valentin, Jim Parque, Marvin Bernard, Jeremy Giambi' potential HOFers?

That's what I call a big hall. Give me a break. In fact, some of those guys never moved PAST being bench warmers....

Sosa, on the other hand, is a different thing... he still ISN'T deserving of being in the Hall, but I will accept that he qualifies as 'potential'. What I don't agree is that he started as a 'bench warmer'.

Look at YOUR OWN example. You said 'he went from hitting 25 HRs a year'... 25 HRs a year is a bench warmer? In what game is that?
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Old 01-24-2014, 09:47 AM   #63
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To me, like any question, it's not black or white.

I do not believe Steroid users with any eye raising doubt should be elected into the HOF by the Baseball Writers or Veteran's COmmittee while still alive.

Upon their death, they can be elected in.

You were a great player, yes. But you will not get the accolades from standing on that stage.

BTW, so happy anti steroid advocate Frank Thomas was elected. I still remember him being so pissed about steroids in baseball

and greenies are nothing like steroids.

That's like comparing a fender bender to a plane crash
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:26 AM   #64
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BTW, so happy anti steroid advocate Frank Thomas was elected. I still remember him being so pissed about steroids in baseball

and greenies are nothing like steroids.
You are right... greenies are much worse.
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:39 AM   #65
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Wait you said that steroids took people from bench warmers to potential HOFers, and then THIS is the list of players you use as an example?

Let's skip Sosa for a moment...

You consider 'Jose Valentin, Jim Parque, Marvin Bernard, Jeremy Giambi' potential HOFers?

That's what I call a big hall. Give me a break. In fact, some of those guys never moved PAST being bench warmers....

Sosa, on the other hand, is a different thing... he still ISN'T deserving of being in the Hall, but I will accept that he qualifies as 'potential'. What I don't agree is that he started as a 'bench warmer'.

Look at YOUR OWN example. You said 'he went from hitting 25 HRs a year'... 25 HRs a year is a bench warmer? In what game is that?
Your right I has misread your OP. Raffy was one that the Cubs were not too high on, they preferred Grace over Raffy.
Sosa was the 4th OF with the Sox with the exception of 1990 when we had no one else who could start in RF. That is in part the reason why they traded him to the Cubs for Jorge Bell so we could have a RF who one was a left handed hitter to bat 4th/5th and 2 someone who could play everyday who could hit. You dont feel Sosa and his 609 HR is HOF worthy? How many players with 600+ HR are not in the Hall?
Other players who potentially took steroids that probably would not have done as well (these are mostly speculation) Bagwell, Piazza, Canseco, Dawson if true that he was on Roids, Maggs.
When did I call a 25 HR guy a bench player? Not saying I didn't say that, I just can't find it.
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:41 AM   #66
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To me, like any question, it's not black or white.

I do not believe Steroid users with any eye raising doubt should be elected into the HOF by the Baseball Writers or Veteran's COmmittee while still alive.

Upon their death, they can be elected in.

You were a great player, yes. But you will not get the accolades from standing on that stage.
All for this. Can we get Shoeless Joe & Rose in 1st? If we are going to allow cheaters, lets put them all in. Perry and others are already in.
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:45 AM   #67
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if you don't include barry bonds the accomplishments of greg maddux are diminished. it loses it's context. you can't wish something didn't happen that way it did by pretending it didn't.

the first admitted testosterone user was 1889. gambling was rampant right up until the black sox, and modern steroids entered in the late 20's. there is no such thing as "pure" numbers.
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:47 AM   #68
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Sosa, on the other hand, is a different thing... he still ISN'T deserving of being in the Hall, but I will accept that he qualifies as 'potential'. What I don't agree is that he started as a 'bench warmer'.

Look at YOUR OWN example. You said 'he went from hitting 25 HRs a year'... 25 HRs a year is a bench warmer? In what game is that?
I never called Sosa a bench warmer when he hit 25 HR. He hit 33 in 1993 with the Cubs he was the everyday RF when he got traded. I did say Sosa would not have hit 25 HR without Roids. That is wrong since I dont believe he started taking them until after 1996.
Love how the only way you can get your point across is by twisting my words. That was a common tactic of Rich.
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:49 AM   #69
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if you don't include barry bonds the accomplishments of greg maddux are diminished. it loses it's context. you can't wish something didn't happen that way it did by pretending it didn't.

the first admitted testosterone user was 1889. gambling was rampant right up until the black sox, and modern steroids entered in the late 20's. there is no such thing as "pure" numbers.
Then lets get some guys taken out of the HOF instead of letting the current group of cheaters in. Makes a guy like Rabbit Maranville & Jim Rice look better.
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:53 AM   #70
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Then lets get some guys taken out of the HOF instead of letting the current group of cheaters in. Makes a guy like Rabbit Maranville & Jim Rice look better.
you lose even more context and the accomplishments make no sense and the whole exercise is pointless.

if it were me I would quietly make a display(s), open it on some random Tuesday, and send them their jacket 3rd class mail.

"you can be in, but we are not going to honor you"
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:58 AM   #71
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you lose even more context and the accomplishments make no sense and the whole exercise is pointless.

if it were me I would quietly make a display(s), open it on some random Tuesday, and send them their jacket 3rd class mail.

"you can be in, but we are not going to honor you"
I would be fine with that, I think.
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Old 01-24-2014, 10:59 AM   #72
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"you can be in, but we are not going to honor you"
That's all I want.
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:15 AM   #73
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Love how the only way you can get your point across is by twisting my words. That was a common tactic of Rich.
I 'twisted' nothing, but that doesn't mean I might not have misunderstood what you were saying.

Who is Rich?
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:31 AM   #74
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I 'twisted' nothing, but that doesn't mean I might not have misunderstood what you were saying.

Who is Rich?
Ok Rich, um Say Hey, McGraw. OTD guy.
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:46 AM   #75
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Steroids with minimal gym work helped players hit more HR. Coke, drinking and especially greenies did not.
Uh, you have no idea what you are talking about. To get the benefits of steroids you have to work longer and harder in the gym. If you take steroids and sit on your butt all you will get is fat... not jacked.
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:48 AM   #76
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Uh, you have no idea what you are talking about. To get the benefits of steroids you have to work longer and harder in the gym. If you take steroids and sit on your butt all you will get is fat... not jacked.
It really depends on what they're taking. Your old school testosterone based steroids you need to work off all the testosterone which means more time at the gym.

The new stuff though appears to make it a lot easier for players to get jacked without being gym rats.
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:50 AM   #77
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In twenty years we will look at the hall with the criminal exclusion of Joe Jackson, Pete Rose and surely Barry Bonds. Bonds who stamped his Cooperstown ticket well before ever touching the juice.
I think there's a difference between excluding people on baseball's permanently ineligible list and people who never received any sort of punishment from major league baseball whatsoever.
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Old 01-24-2014, 11:56 AM   #78
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Yes let's ban all the players who made baseball popular after the strike. Sammy and Bic Mac brought baseball back from the dead pretty much. I'm sure the owners/commish/managers knew what was going on, but were too busy enjoying the money filling their pockets.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:08 PM   #79
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Uh, you have no idea what you are talking about. To get the benefits of steroids you have to work longer and harder in the gym. If you take steroids and sit on your butt all you will get is fat... not jacked.
Yes I do know what I am talking about. Do you? Go to your doc get on HGH or pretty much any steroid your doctor will prescribe then go arm and work out for 30 mins 3 days a week. You will be as big if not bigger then the guy not on them who works out 5 days a week for 2 hours. Everyone is different of course.
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Old 01-24-2014, 12:10 PM   #80
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Why do you feel that way? I am one of the few in here who does know. John go take some, sit on your couch eating potato chips all day and grab your remote and curl it a few times. You already got stronger then a person who does not take steroids and goes to the gym 3 days a week.
Hogwash. This proves you do not know what steroids do.

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Now take someone with natural ability put him on a regime like A-Rod or Bonds put them in a gym a few days a week and that dying quail to LF a few weeks or months ago just went out into the parking lot.
Look at the Mitchell Report list of players, and then come back and try and tout how much steroids make you better.
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