Players not created by game properly

stealofhome · 05-11-2018, 06:51 PM

I'll admit this can be argued as subjective, but it is something I believe to be objectively true. I believe draftees are created with improper fielding and pitching ratios. I've compared these ratings to the quickstart draft which uses real MLB prospects instead of game generated ones.

Ratings that seem okay: IF RNG, IF ARM, OF ERR, OF ARM
Ratings that are too low: TDP ratings are only 92% of the Quickstart average. IF ERR is only 94%, OF RNG - 86%, C ARM - 84%, C ABL - 89%

3rd pitch: Most pitchers generated for the draft are relievers and only relievers due to the absence of a third quality pitch. In the quickstart draft, 78% of the pitchers have a 3rd quality pitch. Of course many of those pitchers will not fully develop and turn into relievers. However, in OOTP generated drafts, somewhere around 33% of pitchers have even the potential of a third quality pitch.

Lukas Berger · 05-15-2018, 07:21 AM

The thing to be aware of is that the quickstart prospects are all done by hand (99% by me).

I'm not necessarily matching them up perfectly to how OOTP generates players (though I try to not get too far off, and your numbers are actually a bit reassuring to me that I'm not doing anything too crazy!) but am more trying to match the players real scouting reports while not getting too wildly far off from how OOTP does things.

I guess the big difference in what you mention is with the third pitches. Maybe that's something to take a look at in the future.

stealofhome · 05-15-2018, 08:19 AM

I honestly think there is a bigger issue either with tdp and catcher ratings or how the game uses these players. There are no good prospects in the draft with good defensive ratings and many have very strange ones - 65 for all infield except 20 at tdp. No highly rated catchers for decades. It repeats over and over and in my opinion is creating an imbalanced game that I simply will not play.

Lukas Berger · 05-15-2018, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stealofhome

I honestly think there is a bigger issue either with tdp and catcher ratings or how the game uses these players. There are no good prospects in the draft with good defensive ratings and many have very strange ones - 65 for all infield except 20 at tdp. No highly rated catchers for decades. It repeats over and over and in my opinion is creating an imbalanced game that I simply will not play.

I have to say that's not really something I've seen at all. Sounds like something is a bit off for sure.

Typically for me, if anything, there are too many good defensive players/catchers generated in my test leagues.

What player creation settings/league type are you using?

stealofhome · 05-15-2018, 09:17 PM

First I'd like to apologize for my tone in the previous response -- I've just put a ton of work (probably a month nonstop and I literally just deleted 20 GB of saved game files) into researching this issue and to feel dismissed off-hand wasn't the response I was expecting.

I have a full write up here, but basically every league setup with no luck. If you feel that what is produced especially from feeder leagues is appropriate for the game, then I at least offer as a concession for all of the fielding ratings to increase with the fielding rating modifier. Currently not all of the ratings and most notably TDP, C ABL, C ARM don't change with the the PCM fielding modifier. If they did I could at least create the league as I expect to.

Lukas Berger · 05-16-2018, 04:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stealofhome

First I'd like to apologize for my tone in the previous response -- I've just put a ton of work (probably a month nonstop and I literally just deleted 20 GB of saved game files) into researching this issue and to feel dismissed off-hand wasn't the response I was expecting.

I have a full write up here, but basically every league setup with no luck. If you feel that what is produced especially from feeder leagues is appropriate for the game, then I at least offer as a concession for all of the fielding ratings to increase with the fielding rating modifier. Currently not all of the ratings and most notably TDP, C ABL, C ARM don't change with the the PCM fielding modifier. If they did I could at least create the league as I expect to.

I see!

I apologize as well, I wasn't trying to be dismissive, just indicating that I wasn't seeing what you were.

I think that's because I didn't understand exactly what you were doing though, and especially that you were talking about feeder leagues.

My response was just based on what I see with a normal draft, not with a feeder league. So if something is off with the PCMs, especially in feeder leagues, I wouldn't have necessarily noticed it and that was what I was talking about in my response. I'll let Markus know he should take a look at your other thread and we can see if hopefully we can make some changes where needed!

Lukas Berger · 05-16-2018, 04:33 AM

The only comment I would make on the data in that thread (which you've done an excellent job compiling!) though is that it would be more helpful to compare the feeder leagues draft pools to a fictional OOTP generated draft pool in a league not using feeder leagues.

That's since the quickstart pool is hand made as I mentioned and any discrepancies are just as likely to be because I'm rating players wrong in the quickstart pool as they are that OOTP is doing something wrong in player creation. Also we do intentionally rate the real draft players in the quickstart a bit higher than in a typical generated fictional pool. So comparing with an OOTP created draft pool eliminates the possibility of human error on my part screwing things up.

That shouldn't affect some of what you mentioned though, f.e. how the PCM's don't seem to affect the ratings in some cases. If that's the case it could definitely be a bug.

Markus Heinsohn · 05-16-2018, 05:03 AM

Please keep in mind that ratings are only one side of the story. In fictional leagues we have different default LTM than in the default real leagues, which also have the option to recalc LTMs after each season enabled (fictionals don't), so comparing the two does not make a lot of sense, since the simulation result for both types of leagues are where we want them to be.

I have added the ability to tweak the turnDP and catcher ability ratings via the PCMs though, these were indeed missing

stealofhome · 05-17-2018, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Please keep in mind that ratings are only one side of the story. In fictional leagues we have different default LTM than in the default real leagues, which also have the option to recalc LTMs after each season enabled (fictionals don't), so comparing the two does not make a lot of sense, since the simulation result for both types of leagues are where we want them to be.

I have added the ability to tweak the turnDP and catcher ability ratings via the PCMs though, these were indeed missing

Thanks for responding to this. Do the default real leagues include the "New Standard game" option or just the Quickstart league?

Mets52 · 05-17-2018, 01:12 PM

I am in a spot right now where I have not seen good rated catchers in a while. The draft is very weak for them as I've gone on, and there's currently no in game mechanics to take a strong arm, athletic guy and put him at catcher. Not to mention, majority if not all of the high catcher ability/strong arm prospects in the draft have low work ethic and intelligent traits.

stealofhome · 05-25-2018, 05:45 PM

Is there at least a way to modify different modifiers individually? I really believe something needs to be looked at with them which I'm willing to mess with myself but right now all I can find is the all encompassing fielding modifier.

05-11-2018, 06:51 PM	#1
stealofhome Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,282 Blog Entries: 1	Players not created by game properly I'll admit this can be argued as subjective, but it is something I believe to be objectively true. I believe draftees are created with improper fielding and pitching ratios. I've compared these ratings to the quickstart draft which uses real MLB prospects instead of game generated ones. Ratings that seem okay: IF RNG, IF ARM, OF ERR, OF ARM Ratings that are too low: TDP ratings are only 92% of the Quickstart average. IF ERR is only 94%, OF RNG - 86%, C ARM - 84%, C ABL - 89% 3rd pitch: Most pitchers generated for the draft are relievers and only relievers due to the absence of a third quality pitch. In the quickstart draft, 78% of the pitchers have a 3rd quality pitch. Of course many of those pitchers will not fully develop and turn into relievers. However, in OOTP generated drafts, somewhere around 33% of pitchers have even the potential of a third quality pitch.

05-15-2018, 07:21 AM	#2
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 19,896	The thing to be aware of is that the quickstart prospects are all done by hand (99% by me). I'm not necessarily matching them up perfectly to how OOTP generates players (though I try to not get too far off, and your numbers are actually a bit reassuring to me that I'm not doing anything too crazy!) but am more trying to match the players real scouting reports while not getting too wildly far off from how OOTP does things. I guess the big difference in what you mention is with the third pitches. Maybe that's something to take a look at in the future. __________________ lukas@ootpdevelopments.com Order Out of the Park Baseball 25! Need to upload files for us to check out? Instructions can be found here

05-15-2018, 09:17 PM	#5
stealofhome Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,282 Blog Entries: 1	First I'd like to apologize for my tone in the previous response -- I've just put a ton of work (probably a month nonstop and I literally just deleted 20 GB of saved game files) into researching this issue and to feel dismissed off-hand wasn't the response I was expecting. I have a full write up here, but basically every league setup with no luck. If you feel that what is produced especially from feeder leagues is appropriate for the game, then I at least offer as a concession for all of the fielding ratings to increase with the fielding rating modifier. Currently not all of the ratings and most notably TDP, C ABL, C ARM don't change with the the PCM fielding modifier. If they did I could at least create the league as I expect to. Last edited by stealofhome; 05-15-2018 at 09:18 PM.

05-16-2018, 04:33 AM	#7
Lukas Berger OOTP Developments Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Nice, Côte d'Azur, France Posts: 19,896	The only comment I would make on the data in that thread (which you've done an excellent job compiling!) though is that it would be more helpful to compare the feeder leagues draft pools to a fictional OOTP generated draft pool in a league not using feeder leagues. That's since the quickstart pool is hand made as I mentioned and any discrepancies are just as likely to be because I'm rating players wrong in the quickstart pool as they are that OOTP is doing something wrong in player creation. Also we do intentionally rate the real draft players in the quickstart a bit higher than in a typical generated fictional pool. So comparing with an OOTP created draft pool eliminates the possibility of human error on my part screwing things up. That shouldn't affect some of what you mentioned though, f.e. how the PCM's don't seem to affect the ratings in some cases. If that's the case it could definitely be a bug. __________________ lukas@ootpdevelopments.com Order Out of the Park Baseball 25! Need to upload files for us to check out? Instructions can be found here

05-16-2018, 05:03 AM	#8
Markus Heinsohn Developer OOTP Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Germany Posts: 24,739	Please keep in mind that ratings are only one side of the story. In fictional leagues we have different default LTM than in the default real leagues, which also have the option to recalc LTMs after each season enabled (fictionals don't), so comparing the two does not make a lot of sense, since the simulation result for both types of leagues are where we want them to be. I have added the ability to tweak the turnDP and catcher ability ratings via the PCMs though, these were indeed missing __________________ Buy Out of the Park Baseball 25 now! Download OOTP Go 25 for iOS Download OOTP Go 25 for Android

05-15-2018, 08:19 AM	#3
stealofhome Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,282 Blog Entries: 1	I honestly think there is a bigger issue either with tdp and catcher ratings or how the game uses these players. There are no good prospects in the draft with good defensive ratings and many have very strange ones - 65 for all infield except 20 at tdp. No highly rated catchers for decades. It repeats over and over and in my opinion is creating an imbalanced game that I simply will not play.

05-17-2018, 01:12 PM	#10
Mets52 Minors (Double A) Join Date: May 2017 Posts: 124	I am in a spot right now where I have not seen good rated catchers in a while. The draft is very weak for them as I've gone on, and there's currently no in game mechanics to take a strong arm, athletic guy and put him at catcher. Not to mention, majority if not all of the high catcher ability/strong arm prospects in the draft have low work ethic and intelligent traits.

05-25-2018, 05:45 PM	#11
stealofhome Hall Of Famer Join Date: Apr 2014 Posts: 2,282 Blog Entries: 1	Is there at least a way to modify different modifiers individually? I really believe something needs to be looked at with them which I'm willing to mess with myself but right now all I can find is the all encompassing fielding modifier.