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Old 10-09-2013, 03:56 AM   #21
PSUColonel
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very strange...I actually pulled the trigger on the trade, and while the 5 million in cash was supposed to be in the deal, and is even mentioned in the news article and transaction logs, the cash never was actually transferred. This must be some sort of bug.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:11 AM   #22
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This has absolutely nothing on how the AI deals with roster logic/waivers in combination with draft pick trading. I'll post some screenshots in a couple weeks when I complete my in-season trades.
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Old 10-09-2013, 09:17 AM   #23
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Trading Way Too Easy

Is trade setting on favor prospects or no?
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Old 10-09-2013, 12:05 PM   #24
'94 EXPOS
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Where it begins and ends for me is that there are still exploits available to players if you look for them. I don't have a problem with the exploits being pointed out in hopes that they can be fixed. Self regulation will always be a part of playing this game for me and that's ok. This game's trade logic is far superior to anything I have played:
- Madden---you can rebuild the worst franchise in a season or two
- NFL Head Coach---they wanted you to buy the game so they made it so you would win (either that or I should be an NFL GM)
- EA NHL Hockey---just terrible (haven't played the new one though--but not holding my breath)
- Baseball Mogul---not bad but a too simple game for more dedicated players

I've notice and improved trade/waivers/40 man logic in '14. It used to be you could snag some ridiculous talent off waivers (and no other team would clam them)---now not so much. Aslo, the AI has improved what it will take back in trades. The cash exploit shown here shows there is still ways to work the system. However, the example shown would not work for my small market team as my owner takes all the cash and gives me the lowest budget in the league.

Just keep making the best game better!
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:36 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
I wish you had to just send offers without immediate feedback, I think it made negotiating a bit more difficult.
Making trading really, really inconvenient for users is not a good solution to trade AI problems. Many versions ago, OOTP forced you to submit every trade offer for AI consideration, and it was extremely annoying.

It is true that the AI attaches little value to players it has placed on the Trade Block. That's usually perfectly fine, because the AI is usually only putting players of negative value (players paid more than they're worth) on the Block. In those rare instances, though, when a good player ends up on the Block, he is sometimes too easy to acquire. I suspect turning the Morale system off would help, since then there will be fewer angry players demanding trades (the AI tends to put all those players on the block, though they're usually angry because they suck and are playing badly, so they aren't worth anything to begin with).

The problem as I see it is how the AI uses the Trade Block to begin with. So as far as this goes:

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No but I've already written several posts that players on the block should be easy to trade for. That is why they are on the block.
But that's not why they should be on the block. In real life, the 'trade block' is not full of guys no one wants. I mean, sure, someone like Alfonso Soriano was on the block last offseason, but so was Justin Upton.

Players end up on the block because their teams decide the return they can get in trade will be more useful than the player will be. Sometimes the value comes from simply offloading the player's salary, but more often the value comes from acquiring players more likely to be useful when the team is ready to contend, or from offloading surplus at one position to fill a need at another.

The one thing players on the real life block have in common is that their teams intend to trade them imminently, assuming they receive a worthwhile offer. That's how I think OOTP should work too, though the AI isn't really smart enough to use the trade block that way at the moment. AI teams should really have long-range plans, and should understand which players fit in those plans, and which don't, and therefore could be traded away for more useful guys. When an AI team identifies a player who would be better traded than kept, for whatever reason, that player should go on the block, and other AI teams should be 'bidding' on the player once that happens.

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Colby is only making 2 million a year and is in the final year of his contract...they are willing to also give me 5 million, and the players I offered are absolute scrubs.

EDIT: De Fratus might have a little potential, but that's it.
You might look up the Ervin Santana trade from last offseason - if you ignore the finances it's basically the same type of deal (ostensibly mediocre veteran SP traded for a fringey relief prospect), except that De Fratus is miles better as a prospect than Brandon Sisk. It's really not that far off real life.

Last edited by injury log; 10-09-2013 at 02:40 PM.
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:54 PM   #26
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Is trade setting on favor prospects or no?
no it's not, it's neutral
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Old 10-09-2013, 02:58 PM   #27
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You might look up the Ervin Santana trade from last offseason - if you ignore the finances it's basically the same type of deal (ostensibly mediocre veteran SP traded for a fringey relief prospect), except that De Fratus is miles better as a prospect than Brandon Sisk. It's really not that far off real life.

It's hard to ignore the money though, but as I said, the money was never actually transferred even though the AI agreed to it, and the log reflects it as part of the trade...leading me to beleive there is something a bit screwy going on here somehow.

Last edited by PSUColonel; 10-09-2013 at 04:18 PM.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:26 PM   #28
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It's haed to ignore the money though, but as I said, the money was never actually transferred even though the AI agreed to it, and the log reflects it as part of the trade...leading me to beleive there is something a bit screwy going on here somehow.
Are you playing with the 'Street Rules' setting on?

If so, you should remember to always get your money before handing over the product!!!
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:30 PM   #29
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I think the title of this thread is misleading but it is NOT too easy to trade.

There IS a problem in here, and that is the issue of the money.

A: Offering more money than the value of the contracts you are trying to dump is... odd

B: no money changed hands!

Those are legitimite bugs.
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Old 10-09-2013, 03:33 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by PSUColonel View Post
It's haed to ignore the money though, but as I said, the money was never actually transferred even though the AI agreed to it, and the log reflects it as part of the trade...leading me to beleive there is something a bit screwy going on here somehow.
Could be.. without the money, I could see the trade as being ok.
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Old 10-09-2013, 05:29 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by injury log View Post

It is true that the AI attaches little value to players it has placed on the Trade Block. That's usually perfectly fine, because the AI is usually only putting players of negative value (players paid more than they're worth) on the Block. In those rare instances, though, when a good player ends up on the Block, he is sometimes too easy to acquire. I suspect turning the Morale system off would help, since then there will be fewer angry players demanding trades (the AI tends to put all those players on the block, though they're usually angry because they suck and are playing badly, so they aren't worth anything to begin with).
I don't see that. I've cloned leagues taken players off the block, advanced a couple of days (sometimes more) and the demand is no different. I've also looked at similar players who were not on the block (yet?), and they generate very similar demands. I understand that's just my interpretation but I'll stand by it. Another observation. In my leagues the trade block is not full of players. I don't see many players on it except at certain times in the season. All players on the block are angry but not all angry players are on the block.

The shop player feature seems to be a more accurate more functional trading block. The same high priced duds appear all the time when you shop certain players and most of them are not on the trading block. When you take a player offered to you by shopping and trade directly you can sometimes make a better deal. This suggests the AI is offering less value for a shopped player and taking less value in reverse. That tends to support my claim that player value is and should be affected by the direction of the transaction.

The calculation the AI uses to get rid of a high priced duds seems identical trade block or not. I don't care what flaws exist in how the trade block is populated in OOTP. The players on it should go for a discount, just like any other commodity would.

Quote:
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But that's not why they should be on the block. In real life, the 'trade block' is not full of guys no one wants. I mean, sure, someone like Alfonso Soriano was on the block last offseason, but so was Justin Upton.

Players end up on the block because their teams decide the return they can get in trade will be more useful than the player will be. Sometimes the value comes from simply offloading the player's salary, but more often the value comes from acquiring players more likely to be useful when the team is ready to contend, or from offloading surplus at one position to fill a need at another.

The one thing players on the real life block have in common is that their teams intend to trade them imminently, assuming they receive a worthwhile offer. That's how I think OOTP should work too, though the AI isn't really smart enough to use the trade block that way at the moment. AI teams should really have long-range plans, and should understand which players fit in those plans, and which don't, and therefore could be traded away for more useful guys. When an AI team identifies a player who would be better traded than kept, for whatever reason, that player should go on the block, and other AI teams should be 'bidding' on the player once that happens.
To be anywhere realistic to real life, the bold is the opposite of what happens. Any player that is identified as a trade candidate declines in value (remember Vince Carter?). GM's spend copious time playing the game such that they don't identify assets publicly and to force other teams to make the first offer. IRL the trade block is rumor, innuendo. lies and serious poker. I'm not saying there isn't a RL trade block just that GM's will not say a player is available until they have an idea of what value the other team places on him.

There is no way you would get bidding on assets everyone knows are for sale. The rare exception might be a desperate team who has a perfect fit. Even then the desperate GM would do everything to downplay his need for an asset that has been identified.
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:17 PM   #32
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See this example.


Useless player on the block. He is owed $25 million. The AI won't look at scrubs and and I can't take his contract without money. When I demand more money to pay the contract they ask for prime prospects.

What I can't see is the $5M and a serviceable catcher. That's a sweet deal for the Dodgers. Any GM who offered that for this steaming pile should be fired and blackballed from the club.

The catcher offered was a 0.300 hitter and a very good back up or a great platoon. No scrub got a sniff.

Based on this and many other examples I can't see how players on the block are easy to trade for.
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Old 10-09-2013, 06:21 PM   #33
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I was wrong about the cash not being transferred, it was..it just didn't go into cash. Rather it's being used for the signing of free agents...not "cash". I looked at the cash from trades, and I was plus 4 mil....this after having given i mil in another trade earlier in the season. So, no that part is not a bug....accept I'll never know why the AI agreed to give the 5 mil to me. Seems like they were willing to give me anything I wanted( at least in terms of cash) to take this player away from them...and to me, that is a problem.

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Old 10-09-2013, 07:55 PM   #34
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I'm afraid I didn't really understand your post, Rich. For example, isn't this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RchW View Post
There is no way you would get bidding on assets everyone knows are for sale.
exactly how every standard auction in the world works?
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Old 10-09-2013, 08:40 PM   #35
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I'm afraid I didn't really understand your post, Rich. For example, isn't this:



exactly how every standard auction in the world works?
Apples and Oranges. Auctions aren't held for assets that are not wanted. We did establish that players on the trading block with few exceptions are not of value.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:13 AM   #36
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Here si the bug I found: when I completed the trade, the 5 million and Eric Kratz went to the Rangers, I got Lewis, and for some reason DeFratus never went to the Rangers, even though he was supposed to. Is this because cash was involved? I don't know. Something here seems a bit buggy to me though.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:14 AM   #37
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We should all try to test trading players who are on the block, and make sure you demand a lot of cash from the opposing team in the deal (along with the player)
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Old 10-10-2013, 05:07 AM   #38
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I still don't understand.

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Originally Posted by RchW View Post
We did establish that players on the trading block with few exceptions are not of value.
My whole point was that players on the real life trade block often are players other teams want. In OOTP, not so much, but if no one wants a player, it hardly matters if he's on the Trade Block or not.

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Apples and Oranges. Auctions aren't held for assets that are not wanted.
And the reason auctions work is because you get two people bidding against each other, which is precisely why, when a team like Arizona decides it wants to trade Justin Upton, it works to Arizona's advantage to advertise the fact.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:34 AM   #39
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when a team like Arizona decides it wants to trade Justin Upton, it works to Arizona's advantage to advertise the fact.
I don't agree with this at all. Generally when a team decides they want to trade a player, and it is well known, that will drive the player's trade value down.

Not evry time, but generally. You lose the leverage of just saying, "no thanks. we'll just keep him."

Last edited by rpriske; 10-10-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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Old 10-10-2013, 10:57 AM   #40
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So let me get this straight ... trading is too easy because humans can outsmart a computer program when making complex trade offers? Unless your name is Garry Kasparov, this should be something that can happen regularly.

I agree that Markus should always look to improve the trade AI. But he's never going to be able to get it to the point where there are no exploits. And if he actually did, then we'd get "Trading is too difficult" threads.

We all want the game to play perfectly "out of the box," but in reality we all need to understand that it takes some time to get the settings in proper order for the game to work the way you want it to work. So maybe instead of posts claiming trading is too easy, we should be making posts asking how to make trading harder.
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