Which Pitcher is the better pitcher overhaul?

[OldFatGuy]

I'm sure this has been asked probably lots of times but I couldn't find it on a quick look through of the forums.

Let's say you have two pitchers, exact same size, weight, throwing arm, velocity, and ground ball percentage, and they throw the exact same pitches (Fastball, Curveball, Slider, and Changup) and so the only differences are among their primary ratings and their pitch ratings.

Pitcher number one STUFF: 15 MOVEMENT 15 CONTROL 15
FB-9, CB-9, SL-9, CU-9.

Pitcher number two STUFF: 12 MOVEMENT 12 CONTROL 12
FB-15, CB-15, SL-15, CU-15

I have always assumed pitcher number one was the better pitcher, and believe that's still true or should be true, but I'm seeing some things in my league that is making me wonder.

Which pitcher is better, number one or number two, and why???


ADDED IN EDIT: Oops, sorry for the big mistake in the subject line. I don't seem to be able to fix it, but obviously that last word should be overall and not overhaul. LOL

[Questdog]

If the two players are exactly alike in other respects, then pitcher #2's Stuff rating should not be lower than pitcher #1's......

But the answer you seek, I believe, is that the overall Stuff rating takes precedence over individual pitch ratings, since the Stuff rating is a composite of factors which includes the pitch ratings.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Questdog

If the two players are exactly alike in other respects, then pitcher #2's Stuff rating should not be lower than pitcher #1's......

Are you sure???

I thought I had seen pitcher's like this but I'll go back and look again, perhaps I'm misremembering.

But yeah, I thought the Stuff/Mvt/Cont/ ratings were like the parent ratings, and the pitch ratings were "underneath" each one. In other words pitcher one's effective Movement rating would be 15.45 (.45 coming from 9/20 rating) and pitcher number two's effective movement rating would be like 12.75.

So I guess I didn't think it was impossible for a pitcher having better pitch ratings but lower stuff ratings.

ADDED IN EDIT: Yeah, I guess you were right. I'm not seeing any examples like that with a cursory look at my league. My damn memory sucks.

May I ask another question along those lines then?? It has to do with defense ratings. Are the defense ratings at a position like the way you explained the stuff rating above (a compiliation of things including the Infield Error, Infield Range, Infield Arm) or are they merely another rating, all by itself, on which to judge a player (meaning the defensive player with a better position rating would get the benefit of better jumps on the ball and better positioning but the one with the better error rating would still catch it better and the one with the better range would still have better range. Am I making sense???

I had always thought it was the latter, but I saw a thread on here some time ago that basically said all one needs to look at is the defensive rating at a position. If player A has an 18 SS rating and player B has a 12 SS rating, player A is the better SS even though player B may have better range, error, and arm ratings. Do you by chance know??

[Questdog]

Yes, the defensive positional ratings are like that. They are a composite of the basic fielding ratings plus a hidden experience rating.

[OldFatGuy]

Originally Posted by Questdog

Yes, the defensive positional ratings are like that. They are a composite of the basic fielding ratings plus a hidden experience rating.

Thanks.

I guess I really don't understand the purpose of the underlying ratings then.

As you said, once I looked for the correlation, it was there, almost perfectly. The individual pitch ratings for pitchers is, apparently, almost entirely dependant on their stuff ratings.

So, what's the point??? If we already knew pitcher A has a STUFF rating of 12 and pither B a STUFF rating of 9, then we by definition know that pitcher A's individual pitch ratings will be correspondingly higher.

The only point I can see to individual pitch ratings like that would be if individual batters were also rated on their vulnerability to pitches, and thus it might matter which pitch for a 12 rated STUFF pitcher was the good one and which one might not be so good, but I didn't think that had been introduced yet. (Has it, and I've been ignoring it??)

Same way with the defensive ratings. If all we need to know is that any player with a 15 shortstop rating is better than any player with a 14 shortstop palyer, what's the point of the other ratings.

And most especially regarding defensive ratings, it really is a mystery how some of those ratings are figured, because when you see a player with a range of 15, an arm of 12, a TDP of 14, and an error rating of 18 have a smaller SS rating than one with a range of 9, an arm of 10, a TDP of 11, and an error rating of 14 that's a head scratcher.

"Mmm, let's see, this player has better range, better arm, catches it better, and turns two better, but this other player is the better shortstop." What the heck?

I feel like I'm back to square one with this game again.

[sc_superstar]

The reasons these are important is to analyze further when more things are equal.

Take these examples (all numbers are made up and may not correspond to actual in game calculations)

Pitcher A has 15 stuff
Pitcher B has 15 stuff

All other ratings are equal

they each have CB, FB, CH

Pitcher A has 20 CB 20 FB and 1 CH
Pitcher B has 14 CB 14 FB and 13 CH

If they are both fighting over 1 rotation spot, you can use the underlying numbers to determine Pitcher A should go in the bullpen due to his lack of an effective 3rd pitch

The same can be done with fielding ratings.

You have 2 raw SS prospects one of whom you want to move to 2B, both have 5 ratings at SS

Player C has 18 Range, Error, Arm and DP
Player D has 18 Range, Error, DP but only 10 Arm.

You can assume that you should try and convert player D to a 2B because of his lack of arm.

Sometimes certain ratings can artificially inflate others, so you use the more detailed ratings to make a better choice in tough spots

[sc_superstar]

This can also be useful in drafting when your looking at certain defensive metrics, or certain pitching prospects.