Defense or Bats?

[sc_superstar]

For myself, I will take 1 (maybe 2 in a DH) offensive duds to keep D respectable, Its all about balance, you cant go all defense or all offense, it just doesnt work. 1B, DH if you have one and 1 corner OF (depending on your park) can easly be sacrificed for a slugger.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by EvilGenius

And who can forget Rafael Palmeiro's memorable Gold Glove in 1999

He was SOOO good that year that they only played him 28 games at 1B (a player that good, you gotta make sure he's rested).

That has nothing to do with the abilities of the first basemen I listed. Hernandez, for example, had 1,682 career assists, a 10.26 range factor/9 IP, and 120 total zone runs, and is widely regarded as the best defensive first baseman in baseball history.

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by sc_superstar

But does good 1B D translate to a good defender? could any of the higher end 1B play anything else?

Hernandez certainly could have played third better than some Tiger third basemen we know.

"Within a 10-year span, ’78 – ’87 (by which the “official” rule states is the minimal requirement for eligibility to the Hall of Fame), Hernandez won an MVP Award, 10 straight Gold Gloves, two Silver Sluggers and went to five All-Star games. He finished seven times in the top 10 in doubles. Four times he finished within the top five in runs scored. Hernandez finished four times within the top seven in walks. He was seven times in the top seven in OPS. Hernandez landed five times in the top 10 in runs created. Seven times, Hernandez finished in the top three in times on base. He was in the top 10 in games played a total of six times. To top it off, Hernandez finished third all-time in assists at first base with 1,682." - Shannon Shark

[sc_superstar]

While I agree that some 1B could play other positions, 1B is also where teams send their below average fielders from other positions, wether it be from age or just from lack of ability.

[Leo_The_Lip]

Originally Posted by The Wolf

I have found that getting both a ground ball pitching staff and a really good infield is a recipe for success. The same infield with fly ball pitchers isn't nearly as effective.

I wanted to expand on this as I have recently been using this strategy for my team with an additional very successful twist. While range and arm strength are important, the ability to turn a DP rating is VERY critical if you are going with a ground ball heavy staff. I'll take a bit less on range/arm in order to get 17+ (out of 20) in DP ability. Historically, the team that leads the league in turning DPs is very rarely the pennant winning team for the simple reason that team usually allows the fewest base runners thus having fewer opportunities to need DPs. The major exception to this was the Yankees of the Casey Stengel era. Read Bill James book about managers and you will see him document how Casey was likely the most DP conscious manager of all time. He always played the infield at DP depth (unless it was the bottom of the 9th and the winning run, for example). And he hit and run with almost everybody to stay out of the double play. He also had a lineup rule that you never bat slow right-handed hatters back-to-back. So I've tried to follow those rules recently with excellent results. I had a fictional league (based on MLB historical) win three consecutive WS and also lead the majors with 190+ DPs turned each year. I went back and reset the strategy screen for the early innings to never play the infield-in with force-out situations to maximize my DP opportunities. So it worked then and I'm trying it again, however injuries have knocked out too many pieces in my current game to yield a real test.

[DanP68]

Originally Posted by EvilGenius

Just to get a sense of what kind of players we're talking about here, exactly how much offense would you sacrifice for a player like this?

He's an Elite defensive player at a key position, but below average offensively.

He's a great 1st Baseman, but his Shortstop rating is weak. I can see him increasing it quite a bit if he plays there a lot, due to his high Infield Range. How many games does he have at SS? Bottom line is that it is easy to find maxed out 1B Fielders in OOTP. They aren't special.

[sc_superstar]

In a non DH league, I would take a below average hitting SS or CF for elite D and try and get at least an average to above average D 2B and SS or CF whichever didnt get the dud bat, who can hit at least reasonably well. In a DH league i would eat bad bats at 2 of SS,2B,CF if I had to

[EvilGenius]

Originally Posted by DanP68

He's a great 1st Baseman, but his Shortstop rating is weak. I can see him increasing it quite a bit if he plays there a lot, due to his high Infield Range. How many games does he have at SS? Bottom line is that it is easy to find maxed out 1B Fielders in OOTP. They aren't special.

You may have read that too quick. His SS Rating is 101, that's not weak. Yeah, that usually spills over into unrealistically high 1B skills (we still haven't fixed this??), but ignore that for the moment.

His infield abilities:
Range 100
Error 89
Arm 78
DP 87

Limiting this to purely his defensive abilities at Shortstop (still ignoring 1B), this is pretty special. This guys is a black hole on the left side of the infield, he sucks up everything coming his way. You may find a guy or two better, but not many.

Don't believe me, go into commissioner mode and max out someone's fielding ability and experience. It won't go very much higher.

The point being, most people still wouldn't put this guy in the starting lineup.

[Cinnamon J. Scudworth]

Originally Posted by EvilGenius

There was a thread about this once in older OOTP versions, I tried digging it up but was unsuccessful (I think it was still in effect as of OOTP 12). Apparently, it had been noted that there was ZERO advantage to putting an actual catcher behind the plate. Putting an outfielder with a bad arm behind the plate and he would still throw out baserunners at just about the same clip. There would be a few more passed balls, but no worse than a below average catcher.

It became a cheat in the game that you didn't actually need to waste a roster spot for an expensive catcher. I didn't go all out in testing this, but I'll admit to not carrying a backup catcher and just using my backup 3B instead and it worked out just fine.

(Don't judge me, I'm a weak man! I'm so ashamed)

This was supposed to have been corrected in recent versions and catcher ability was supposed to have more of an impact on the game. Recently, Marcus had mentioned that the Catcher Ability now incorporates how effectively he frames a pitch, influencing balls and strikes.

I've had 20/20 catchers before and noticed that while they don't throw guys out at an absurd rate or anything like that, they are a defensive advantage in the sense that very few runners try to steal on them in the first place.

[DocHalladay]

I wouldn't hesitate to start this guy in my lineup. In my OOTP experience, defensive shortstops like his far out-weigh the average hitter/average fielder types. Give me a master at one thing type player rather than the jack of all trades. IMO this is a guy I can win with.

Evil, what are the fielding stats like or this player?

[EvilGenius]

Originally Posted by DocHalladay

I wouldn't hesitate to start this guy in my lineup. In my OOTP experience, defensive shortstops like his far out-weigh the average hitter/average fielder types. Give me a master at one thing type player rather than the jack of all trades. IMO this is a guy I can win with.

Evil, what are the fielding stats like or this player?

Here's the screenshot of his defensive stats. Apparently he's having a down year in the field (an unusual amount of errors). Oddly enough, he's still doing well at the plate (batting .275). Maybe I should have picked a different guy to use as an example, but too late for that now.

So what I'm taking from this that an Elite defensive player (albeit a bit down this year, but that's expected to right itself in the long run) is worth an Average jack-of-all-trades player. I don't say this to be argumentative or to demean what anyone has said, just getting a sense of what people truly believe. But implicit the initial question concerns an Above Average offensive player with Below Average defense (perhaps not All-Star level, but something more than a run of the mill major league caliber player level) -- otherwise he wouldn't really be described as a "bat" in the lineup, he'd just be a regular guy.

A question I would have is this: Where does your (or anyone's) team rank relative to your league in batting/pitching/fielding?

My league has 32 teams, and I'm playing on a budget. Are the "pitching and defense" advocates ranked 1st or 2nd in pitching, 1st or 2nd in defense, but say 12th in offense? If so, that's a strong argument for the value of defense. I would give serious thought to rethinking my strategy with those numbers in front of me.

If they're ranked 2nd in offense, and willing to drop to 4th in offense for the extra defense, is that really making a case? Its hard to say "My team is built around defense" when ranked that high in offense.

I don't say this to trivialize defense. But on a budget, you can't have it all. SOMETHING has to be given priority at the expense of another. And whatever the team is deficient in will cost some wins. But on a budget, the objective is cutting things in such a way that minimizes the number of losses (or runs if you prefer to think of it that way). I am of the opinion that the overall defense would have to be truly awful before it starts tipping the scales in a significant way.

[ihatenames]

I generally will favor a good hitter over a good defender. The reason is, I believe most good hitters will out hit any mistakes that they make in the field. However, I won't just throw out my best 8 hitters at random positions without regard to defense. They have to be able to play the position. I won't play guys with no or exceptionally low ratings at a position. I do however, weight defense more for positions up the middle as they will get significantly more chances than the corner positions.

[sc_superstar]

What about trying to field a team of strong hitters with great D and sacrifice pitching, if you have some high GB% low stuff starters, they could be cheap enough

[sc_superstar]

I did a small test, that I may keep going to see more than short term results.

Did a fantasy draft from the MLB quickstart.

I set myself a criteria

-I altered the draft budget to match the quickstart budget and controlled the pirates so as to have the lowest draft budget
-8 starting position players picked 1st, D had to be above 15/20 for every starter, then picking the best hitting players
-5 starters were picked next GB% had to be above 50% control and movement were priorities when possible
-7 relievers picked next, again GB% above 50, did not prioritize con/mov
-5 bench players...backup C, UTIL IF, UTIL OF (the UTIL guys had to have multiple position above average D) then another IF and OF who could serve as pinch hitters, but had at least 1 good position in case they were double switched into the game

Ended up with this team

C- Ryan Hannigan, Kelly Shoppach
1B - Albert Pujols, Addison Maruszak
2B - Darwin Barney
3B - Evan Longoria
SS - Alcedes Escobar
LF - Desmond Jennings, Juan Pierre
CF - Yoenis Cespedes
RF - Sterling Marte

UTIL IF - Cory Aldridge
UTIL OF - Reggie Willits

SP - Ricky Nolasco, Bronson Arroyo, Edinson Volquez, Joel Pineiro, Liam Hendricks
MR - Edward Mujica, Chad Qualls, Javy Guerra, Matt Capps, Brandon League, Johnathon Broxton
CL - Jordan Walden

Won 95 games finishing 2nd in the ML, lost in WS

70m in total salaries.

Finished 1st in all pitching stats except strikeouts by a wide margin, and ERA i was thousands of a percentage behind

My offense was oddly enough very middle of the road ranging from 4th-10th in the various categories and 10th in runs scored, I thought it was pretty good, but i won a ton of 2-1, 3-2 type games.

My D was by far better then everyone else again by a wide margin. .16 ahead in D efficincy, and almost +100 ZR better than everyone else

I guess i was more shocked by my teams lack of ability to hit more than anything else, but I would have 15+ million in payroll to work with to make additions.

My lowest GB% starter and reliever finished the year with the worst stats at their position

[Piccamo]

Someone should run a test with all 1B/DH/C-IF types at every position just so we can see if they outhit their ineptitude.

[RPage]

From what I am seeing, most of you are talking about good/great pitching , great defense and good/average hitters. The best way to see if the defense actually helps you is to compare staffs with the same defense. regardless of GB%, select the best staff and run a sim. Do the same thing with league average pitchers. Check both staffs to see if you have any pitchers having a "career" year. If what most of us are thinking is true, then all of the pitchers should have a better year than their career avrg year. You should even find some outliers with great years. Just my opinion...

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Piccamo

Someone should run a test with all 1B/DH/C-IF types at every position just so we can see if they outhit their ineptitude.

I tried that once. It wasn't pretty.

[EvilGenius]

Originally Posted by sc_superstar

I did a small test, that I may keep going to see more than short term results.

. . .

Finished 1st in all pitching stats except strikeouts by a wide margin, and ERA i was thousands of a percentage behind

My offense was oddly enough very middle of the road ranging from 4th-10th in the various categories and 10th in runs scored, I thought it was pretty good, but i won a ton of 2-1, 3-2 type games.

My D was by far better then everyone else again by a wide margin. .16 ahead in D efficincy, and almost +100 ZR better than everyone else

. . .

Thanks for being the only one to post an opinion with real stats behind it and some results to digest. Some people are going to whine about how its not a perfect experiment, but its still more than anyone else.

And as a general point in regards some other posts. NO ONE is suggesting defense is so unimportant as to field players who have virtually no rating in the position. Not a single person here even hinted at that. Comments suggesting such contribute nothing to the discussion and are just plain asinine.

[sc_superstar]

I may restart it into more than a test league. With elite D you can survive off of borderline awful starting pitching with high GB% as long as you have a good bullpen and a few guys who can crush the ball and play D. I had Longoria and Pujols eating 50% of my payroll, but they did all the offense, my makeshift budget rotation was very good, once they dropped to 1 and .5* players, they started to become pretty garbage but were still better then they should have been.

Edinson Volquez went 13-11 with an ERA slightly over 4 with a .5* current/potential, but his WHIP was in the high 1.6's and his FIP was almost 6!

after 3 years I ended up with 3 winning seasons with the lowest payroll in baseball, 1 WS appearance, 2 playoff appearances, 13 gold gloves, 1 ROY, 1 Cy Young, 1 MVP

The Cy Young and ROY were the same guy, a 22 y/o 2.5* mid rotation starter who went 17-4 with a 2.40 ERA and a FIP over 4, WHIP under 1 and a BAPIP of .209!

Most of the pitchers I had were either having career years or pitching at that level

[The Wolf]

High percentage groundball pitchers with an elite infield behind them tend to pitch way over the head - and over their ratings.