Demoting players from DL directly to minors

[battists]

Alright, who can explain this to me? I've heard here and there that OOTP doesn't handle it correctly when a major leaguer is on the DL, and you want to demote him directly to the minors from the DL.

I want to make sure OOTP is handling this correctly.

So, I guess I need some experts out there to tell me, what are the rules around demoting a player directly from the major league DL, in the following circumstances?

a) player has options remaining
b) player has no options remaining

And, how does it differ, if at all, if it is Spring Training or the regular season?

Thanks folks!

Steve

[Questdog]

As far as the player is concerned, it's just like going to the minors from the 25-man roster, subject to whatever waivers the player is eligible for.....

The issue with the way OOTP handles it is the way it affects your 25-man roster. You should NOT have to clear a spot on the 25 man roster first and then send him down......

[wish7694]

Originally Posted by Questdog

As far as the player is concerned, it's just like going to the minors from the 25-man roster, subject to whatever waivers the player is eligible for.....

The issue with the way OOTP handles it is the way it affects your 25-man roster. You should NOT have to clear a spot on the 25 man roster first and then send him down......

This is correct as shown several times at the end of the following thread.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...ng-off-dl.html

In regards to spring training the thread below goes back and forth but the consensus is that OOTP currently has it correct except for the fact that IRL a player with options who did not play at the MLB level the previous year can be optioned down when injured if there are more than 15 days of spring training left.

I am not sure how or even if Markus would like to implement this level of detail.

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...itch-game.html

[Le Grande Orange]

The issue is that OOTP requires a 25-man roster spot be cleared to accommodate the player reinstated from the DL, after which the reinstated player can then be moved off the 25-man roster.

In MLB, it appears the reinstatement from the DL and removal from the 25-man roster down to the minors is essentially considered simultaneous. That is, clearing a 25-man spot isn't necessary for the reinstated player if he is going to be immediately reassigned. A player with options left would be optioned down in the normal course; a player being outrighted would either be put on (outright assignment) waivers upon being reinstated, or would be designated for assignment.

Originally Posted by wish7694

In regards to spring training the thread below goes back and forth but the consensus is that OOTP currently has it correct except for the fact that IRL a player with options who did not play at the MLB level the previous year can be optioned down when injured if there are more than 15 days of spring training left.

No, not optioned, outrighted only. The relevant sections in the CBA make it clear it is talking about an outright assignment of a player on the major league DL to the minors. A player cannot be optioned to the minors while on the major league DL.

And, really, optioning a player while on the 15-DL would be pointless, since he doesn't count against the 25-man roster anyway when on that DL. The option would not free up a roster spot.

The move that does clear a roster spot is an outright assignment while on the 15-day DL; that frees up both a 25-man and 40-man roster spot. And that's why the Article XIX (C) specifically restricts when players can be assigned outright while on the DL to the minors. The rest of the time, a player cannot be sent to the minors while on the major league DL (other than for rehab assignments); he must be reinstated from the DL first.

An optional or outright assignment to the minor leagues while on the 60-day DL are both equally pointless, since the player does not count against the 40-man roster while on the 60-day DL. So neither move would free up a roster spot.

[wish7694]

Remember we are talking about the time between the 40 man roster being announced and 15 days before the season starts, at all other times what LGO said above would be true.

Here is the section of the CBA relevant to the spring training discussion Article XIX (C):

(2) Notwithstanding Section C(1) above, a Player who is injured
and not able to play may be assigned to a Minor League club:

...

(b) During the period immediately following the filing of
Major League Reserve Lists and before the 15th day prior to the
start of the next championship season, if:
(i) the Player has less than three years of Major League
service;
(ii) the contemplated assignment would not be the Player’s
second (or subsequent) career outright assignment since
March 19, 1990;
(iii) the Player had no Major League service the prior
championship season; and
(iv) the Player was not selected by the assignor Major
League Club in the immediately preceding Rule 5 Draft.


Throughout the CBA assignment is used in reference to trades, waivers, optional assignments, and outright assignments. While section (ii) does apply to outright assignments, I do not read into this that this entire section of the CBA is therefore only talking about outright assignments.

LGO is right, outrighting a player during spring training rarely makes sense, therefore what is the purpose of this section? To put down a very specific set of circumstances where a player with the major league team during spring training can be sent to the minors when injured. Why? So as to avoid the service time generated if he is placed on the major league DL.

So, this section states (as I read it),

(i) the player must have less than 3 years of MLB service (generally speaking this player would have options left)

(ii) IF it is an outright assignment it cannot be the players 2nd outright

(iii) and (iv) self explanatory

[wish7694]

So the post above was long and I am sure LGO is going to tell me I am reading the thing wrong,

However, the point of this thread is hopefully to produce a realistic proxy for these rules in the context of a game that is to be played mostly by people who are not interested in this level of detail or accuracy.

As LGO has pointed out before, the game right now does not really do outright assignments at all, so it seems pointless to get into a drawn out discussion of how to interpret the CBA.

The questions to be asking is, IF Markus wants to be more realistic in this respect, how should he do it? In that limited context my suggestion would be: players with options can be sent to the minors when injured during spring training IF they have no MLB service time AND it is more than 15 days before the start of the season. I believe these small tweaks would increase the accuracy without being unduly complex to code or understand.

Your mileage may very.

[wish7694]

Here is an interesting little nugget, unsurprisingly, it is very easy for teams to get around this rule.

In the link below a pitcher is said to have a sore arm and is likely to go on the DL, THE NEXT DAY he is optioned to the minors, he then begins the season on the minor league DL. All of this well within 15 days of the season starting.

KFFL - Greg Smith, SP, Colorado Rockies

Pacific Coast League: Stats: Stats

Of course in OOTP the injury has a definite date, IRL there is often a discrepancy between the time of injury and the time of diagnosis. (Just look at Tankersly from Florida).

So, maybe Markus should just let us demote whenever we want since that is what REALLY HAPPENS. J/K

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by wish7694

Remember we are talking about the time between the 40 man roster being announced and 15 days before the season starts, at all other times what LGO said above would be true.

Here is the section of the CBA relevant to the spring training discussion Article XIX (C):

(2) Notwithstanding Section C(1) above, a Player who is injured
and not able to play may be assigned to a Minor League club:

...

(b) During the period immediately following the filing of
Major League Reserve Lists and before the 15th day prior to the
start of the next championship season, if:
(i) the Player has less than three years of Major League
service;
(ii) the contemplated assignment would not be the Player’s
second (or subsequent) career outright assignment since
March 19, 1990;
(iii) the Player had no Major League service the prior
championship season; and
(iv) the Player was not selected by the assignor Major
League Club in the immediately preceding Rule 5 Draft.


Throughout the CBA assignment is used in reference to trades, waivers, optional assignments, and outright assignments. While section (ii) does apply to outright assignments, I do not read into this that this entire section of the CBA is therefore only talking about outright assignments.

LGO is right, outrighting a player during spring training rarely makes sense, therefore what is the purpose of this section? To put down a very specific set of circumstances where a player with the major league team during spring training can be sent to the minors when injured. Why? So as to avoid the service time generated if he is placed on the major league DL.

So, this section states (as I read it),

(i) the player must have less than 3 years of MLB service (generally speaking this player would have options left)

(ii) IF it is an outright assignment it cannot be the players 2nd outright

(iii) and (iv) self explanatory

One thing to remember, however, is that The Collective Bargaining Agreement is NOT the league's operating rules. That is their agreement with the players' union and can and does get circumscribed all the time.....

[BMW]

Originally Posted by Questdog

One thing to remember, however, is that The Collective Bargaining Agreement is NOT the league's operating rules. That is their agreement with the players' union and can and does get circumscribed all the time.....

What gets regularly circumvented? And it is substantially similar to something like disabled lists and player options?

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by wish7694

So the post above was long and I am sure LGO is going to tell me I am reading the thing wrong,

Yes, I was planning to, as I think I found the necessary evidence in the CBA to demonstrate that.

But, I'm holding off until I contact someone I know through SABR who is very well versed in the details of the Major League Rules and the CBA. I'm going to pose the question to him and see what he has to say about the matter.

Originally Posted by wish7694

Here is an interesting little nugget, unsurprisingly, it is very easy for teams to get around this rule.

In the link below a pitcher is said to have a sore arm and is likely to go on the DL, THE NEXT DAY he is optioned to the minors, he then begins the season on the minor league DL. All of this well within 15 days of the season starting.

KFFL - Greg Smith, SP, Colorado Rockies

Pacific Coast League: Stats: Stats

Those transactions are possible because the players in question are NOT on the Major League DL. If a player is not on the DL, he can be assigned in the normal fashion. The restrictions detailed in Article XIX (C) are about assigning a player while he is actually ON the Major League DL at the time of the contemplated assignment.

So, the moral is, don't put an injured player on the Major League DL during spring training if you think you might want to send him to the minors later. Send him down first, then put him on the minor league DL. Because if you put him on the Major League DL first, then, with very few exceptions, he cannot be assigned to the minors until reinstated from the DL.

Originally Posted by Questdog

One thing to remember, however, is that The Collective Bargaining Agreement is NOT the league's operating rules. That is their agreement with the players' union and can and does get circumscribed all the time.....

Just to be clear on this, whenever there is a conflict between the Major League Rules and the CBA, the CBA takes precedence.

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Yes, I was planning to, as I think I found the necessary evidence in the CBA to demonstrate that.

But, I'm holding off until I contact someone I know through SABR who is very well versed in the details of the Major League Rules and the CBA. I'm going to pose the question to him and see what he has to say about the matter.

Those transactions are possible because the players in question are NOT on the Major League DL. If a player is not on the DL, he can be assigned in the normal fashion. The restrictions detailed in Article XIX (C) are about assigning a player while he is actually ON the Major League DL at the time of the contemplated assignment.

So, the moral is, don't put an injured player on the Major League DL during spring training if you think you might want to send him to the minors later. Send him down first, then put him on the minor league DL. Because if you put him on the Major League DL first, then, with very few exceptions, he cannot be assigned to the minors until reinstated from the DL.


Just to be clear on this, whenever there is a conflict between the Major League Rules and the CBA, the CBA takes precedence.

yes, if a grievance is filed....and substantiated...

[wish7694]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

So, the moral is, don't put an injured player on the Major League DL during spring training if you think you might want to send him to the minors later. Send him down first, then put him on the minor league DL. Because if you put him on the Major League DL first, then, with very few exceptions, he cannot be assigned to the minors until reinstated from the DL.

See, we agree, injured players can be optioned to the minors during spring training. The CBA I quoted states that it must happen prior to the last 15 days of spring training and can only be done to players who meet the above criteria.

I also agree with you on the point that you cannot be demoted while on the ML DL AT ANY TIME.

As you know, what you describe above as what should be done during spring training is NOT ALLOWED during the regular season. What the CBA section I referance above shows is that it is ALSO NOT ALLOWED to send an injured player to the minors during spring training unless a very specific set of circumstances is met.

So then, what do actual major league transactions show? The only player from this spring put on a ML DL with no service time last year was a pitcher from Boston, Miguel Garcia. He was selected in the rule V draft, so according the the CBA above he had to be put on the ML DL.

On the other side, Christian Garcia was injured in the spring, optioned to the minors with more than 15 days to go, then placed on the minor leage DL to start the season. Also consistent with the above CBA.

Again, the question is how should this be implemented in OOTP? My suggestion is: players with no service time can be optioned down when injured (during spring training only) if it is more than 15 days to the start of the season. All other players have to be put on the ML DL.

The above conditions accurately mimic the reality of how these situations are handled by MLB teams each spring.

[Questdog]

A ML player technically cannot be sent to the minors straight from the DL.

However, if he is eligible to come off and the club wants to send him down, they do NOT need to clear a spot on the 25-man roster for him. They DO need to subject him to waivers as if he was on the 25-man roster, though.

If you think this is not true, then you show me ONE ML transaction where a player was waived to clear a spot on the 25-man roster who was NOT sent to the minors, but merely waived to make temporary space for the guy coming off the DL.

It makes no sense.....

[wish7694]

Originally Posted by Questdog

A ML player technically cannot be sent to the minors straight from the DL.

However, if he is eligible to come off and the club wants to send him down, they do NOT need to clear a spot on the 25-man roster for him. They DO need to subject him to waivers as if he was on the 25-man roster, though.

If you think this is not true, then you show me ONE ML transaction where a player was waived to clear a spot on the 25-man roster who was NOT sent to the minors, but merely waived to make temporary space for the guy coming off the DL.

It makes no sense.....

I don't think anyone is opposing the idea that a player can be sent down after activation without clearing a spot on the 25 man roster. This at least is an easy fix I hope. I would only add that he would need to be exposed to waivers only if he was out of options.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by wish7694

What the CBA section I referance above shows is that it is ALSO NOT ALLOWED to send an injured player to the minors during spring training unless a very specific set of circumstances is met.

That is where we disagree. You believe the provisions apply to players NOT on the DL but who are injured; I think it pretty clear the entirety of the section in question only applies to players actually ON the Major League DL.

And here's why I think that: note the title of Article XIX (C). It says (emphasis added): "Disabled List - Assignment to Minor League Club". It doesn't say "Injured Player - Assignment to Minor League Club"; it specifically says Disabled List. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that the totality of Article XIX (C) only refers to players actually ON the Major League DL. Thus, only players ON the DL with less than three years of service, no prior career outrights, no major league service the prior season, and who are not Rule 5 draftees can be assigned to the minors, provided its not more than 15 days before the start of the regular season. Any other player on the DL cannot be assigned to the minor leagues whatsoever.

In any case, I'm going to ask the fellow I know about it, because he should be able to offer a definitive, detailed answer.

Originally Posted by wish7694

He was selected in the rule V draft, so according the the CBA above he had to be put on the ML DL.

No player "has" to be put on the DL; a club can elect to keep an injured player sitting on the bench if it wants. Of course, in doing so, it's basically paying him to not play when it could put him on the DL, which, while still having to pay the player, at least lets the club bring in a replacement.

A Rule 5 draftee cannot be sent to the minors in any event without first placing him on waivers, and if he clears, then being offered back to his original team. Whether he is on the DL or not is irrelevant.

Originally Posted by wish7694

I would only add that he would need to be exposed to waivers only if he was out of options.

Well, leaving aside the technicality that if it has been three or more years since a player first appeared on the Active List, he has to clear waivers even if he has options remaining. (OOTP doesn't recreate this aspect of the rules.)

A player out of options being sent down to the minors is not only being removed from the 25-man roster but also the 40-man roster. This transaction move always requires waivers (specifically, outright assignment waivers).

[Questdog]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

A player out of options being sent down to the minors is not only being removed from the 25-man roster but also the 40-man roster. This transaction move always requires waivers (specifically, outright assignment waivers).

Why should this be the case that the player has to be removed from the 40-man roster?.....

[wish7694]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

That is where we disagree. You believe the provisions apply to players NOT on the DL but who are injured; I think it pretty clear the entirety of the section in question only applies to players actually ON the Major League DL.

And here's why I think that: note the title of Article XIX (C). It says (emphasis added): "Disabled List - Assignment to Minor League Club". It doesn't say "Injured Player - Assignment to Minor League Club"; it specifically says Disabled List. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that the totality of Article XIX (C) only refers to players actually ON the Major League DL. Thus, only players ON the DL with less than three years of service, no prior career outrights, no major league service the prior season, and who are not Rule 5 draftees can be assigned to the minors, provided its not more than 15 days before the start of the regular season. Any other player on the DL cannot be assigned to the minor leagues whatsoever.

In any case, I'm going to ask the fellow I know about it, because he should be able to offer a definitive, detailed answer.

From the CBA:

"Players who are injured and not able to play may not be assigned to
a Minor League club.
(2) Notwithstanding Section C(1) above, a Player who is injured
and not able to play may be assigned to a Minor League club:"

The above is clearly contemplating players before they are placed on the DL. The exception is the spring training exception hashed out above.

This is where the whole "an injured player can't be placed on the DL" rule comes from, there is no other way to read this but that it applies to players who are ELIGIBLE to be put on the DL because of injury.

Regardless of the interpretation, OOTP does not allow players to be optioned to the minors during spring training when injured. Either way you look at it we both agree it should be allowed, I just think it should be allowed in a more limited circumstance than you do.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

No player "has" to be put on the DL; a club can elect to keep an injured player sitting on the bench if it wants. Of course, in doing so, it's basically paying him to not play when it could put him on the DL, which, while still having to pay the player, at least lets the club bring in a replacement.

The "has" in the above statement refers to the fact that IF he is to be placed on the DL it has to be the ML DL. Sorry for not being more clear.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

A Rule 5 draftee cannot be sent to the minors in any event without first placing him on waivers, and if he clears, then being offered back to his original team. Whether he is on the DL or not is irrelevant.

I brought him up as an example of a transaction consistent with my view of the CBA, nothing more. I agree with you.

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Well, leaving aside the technicality that if it has been three or more years since a player first appeared on the Active List, he has to clear waivers even if he has options remaining. (OOTP doesn't recreate this aspect of the rules.)

A player out of options being sent down to the minors is not only being removed from the 25-man roster but also the 40-man roster. This transaction move always requires waivers (specifically, outright assignment waivers).

Of course there are levels of extra detail and minutia I am leaving out of the discussion for reasons of clarity. But again we agree, as implemented in OOTP, a player with options can be demoted without clearing waivers.

[wish7694]

Here is an example of transactions in support of my view of the CBA.

Transactions | Mariners.com: Team

There is no reason for the Mariners to put Cesar Jiminez on the ML DL and give him service time unless they were forced to do so by the CBA.

This is the obvious conclusion because he was demoted to AAA as soon as he came off of the DL.

If they could have done what LGO suggested, they would have just demoted him to AAA during spring training instead of putting him on the ML DL at the start of the season.

We both agree these spring training demotions can happen, but it can only happen to players who meet the criteria defined in the CBA above.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by wish7694

From the CBA:

"Players who are injured and not able to play may not be assigned to
a Minor League club.
(2) Notwithstanding Section C(1) above, a Player who is injured
and not able to play may be assigned to a Minor League club:"

The above is clearly contemplating players before they are placed on the DL. The exception is the spring training exception hashed out above.

This is where the whole "an injured player can't be placed on the DL" rule comes from, there is no other way to read this but that it applies to players who are ELIGIBLE to be put on the DL because of injury.

Not at all. I again refer you to the title of the entire section (C): Disabled List - Assignment to Minor League Club.

You're taking the words in isolation; I don't think you can do that. You have to take the section in its entirety. The section title is there for a reason. If it wasn't about assignments while on the DL, then the section would have been titled differently. It is a legal document, after all, so things are supposed to be precise.

Originally Posted by wish7694

There is no reason for the Mariners to put Cesar Jiminez on the ML DL and give him service time unless they were forced to do so by the CBA.

Not necessarily. He was still on the roster as of April 1st, four days before the start of the season. Any player still on the roster at that point is in serious contention to be on the opening day 25-man roster.

The club's plan could easily to have had Jiminez as part of the 25-man roster. But he gets injured, so they put him on the DL, originally expecting to have him back on the active list once reinstated from the DL. But, due to subsequent injuries and roster moves, that plan gets altered. So when Jimenez is finally ready to come off the DL, the club no longer needs him on the 25-man roster.

This sort of roster juggling happens all the time.

I offer this as evidence that Seattle was looking seriously at having Jimenez on the 25-man active list. You'll find the following comment near the end of the article: "The Mariners are looking for a late-inning, situational lefty. Jimenez could become a candidate for that spot, provided he shows marked improvement."

Originally Posted by wish7694

This is the obvious conclusion because he was demoted to AAA as soon as he came off of the DL.

Actually, I don't think he was reinstated from the DL at that point, because there's no mention of it in the transaction. It just says he was assigned to Tacoma on April 24. I suspect it was actually a rehab assignment.

Why? Because of the transaction listed on May 25, which states that Jimenez was transferred from the 15-day DL to the 60-day DL. Given that there is no mention of Jimenez between April 24 and May 25, this suggests he never left the 15-day DL and that his assignment to Tacoma was a rehab assignment.

[wish7694]

I tire of this, it is you who is reading things into the plain language of the CBA that are not there,

Of course Jiminezwas being considered for the ML roster, that is why the CBA is written as such, to prevent such a player from being optioned to the minors when he is competing for a major league spot.

I have provided list after list and link after link to support my position, you have just asserted I am incorrect with NO SUPPORT for your position.

If your position was in fact the policy, the MANY players in Cesar's position would be optioned rather than placed on the ML DL.

OK, one more example, Fernando Perez from the Rays:

Here is the article on him being in spring training and competing for a spot but only having a "remote chance" of making the team

Rays feel Perez on verge of stardom | raysbaseball.com: News

Here is a link to an article discussing his injury

Perez suffers dislocation of left wrist | raysbaseball.com: News

Here is the link showing that he was placed on the ML DL at the start of the season

Transactions | raysbaseball.com: Team

Now, you can either say the Rays did this because the CBA says that this player (if he is to be placed on the DL) has to be placed on the ML DL since he was with the ML team and had service time the previous year.

Or you can try to argue that the Rays (a team notorious for delaying service time for their players) decided to put him on their ML DL and give him service time out of the kindness of their hearts.

And no, it was not done just to clear a spot on their 40 man roster. Why? Because they could have put him on the minor league 60 day DL to accomplish the same thing, but they did not because they COULD NOT option him to the minors based on the CBA language.

I will let others judge who has the better of this argument.