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Old 08-02-2009, 10:21 AM   #21
battists
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And people wonder why it's hard for OOTP to get all of the rules right sometimes.
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:47 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by battists View Post
And people wonder why it's hard for OOTP to get all of the rules right sometimes.
Fair enough, but don't let LGO's and my technical disagreement cloud the issue.

In terms of OOTP, players should be able to be sent to the minors off of the DL with the same restrictions as if they were on the active roster. Also, coming off of the 60 day DL is the same except the player must be returned to the 40 man roster (unless waived).


Now, as to spring training, when compared to what is done IRL (leaving aside the CBA for now), OOTP has it close. I stand by my earlier suggestions, but honestly, this is a much smaller issue than the one above.

Last edited by wish7694; 08-02-2009 at 01:51 PM.
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Old 08-02-2009, 01:48 PM   #23
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And people wonder why it's hard for OOTP to get all of the rules right sometimes.
They have obscured the issue with their nitpicking, it seems.

The main thing that needs to be done about this issue, is to allow a player to be shipped to the minors from the DL without having to put him on the 25-man roster first. The player should still be subject to waivers just as if he were going to the minors from the 25-man roster, however, there is no reason we should have to expose a second player to waivers to make room on a roster that this player will never occupy. They don't do it that way in real baseball and we shouldn't do it that way either....
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:17 PM   #24
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The main thing that needs to be done about this issue, is to allow a player to be shipped to the minors from the DL without having to put him on the 25-man roster first.
I think we're all in agreement that's how it should work, at least for the regular season.

The question still open is the exact nature of the restrictions when it comes to spring training assignments to the minor leagues when the player is injured and/or on the Major League Disabled List. Once that's known, then it can be determined whether such restrictions should be recreated in OOTP, either as they are or simplified somewhat, or not recreated in the game.


In regards to the above, I've dispatched a series of relevant questions to my SABR contact who knows about those sorts of things. When I get the replies, I'll post them here. The answers should settle the matter.
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:28 PM   #25
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A player out of options being sent down to the minors is not only being removed from the 25-man roster but also the 40-man roster. This transaction move always requires waivers (specifically, outright assignment waivers).
Excuse me, Sir, but I asked this question earlier in the discussion and I think you may have overlooked it.....

Why do you believe that a player out of options has to be removed from the 40-man roster to be sent to the minors?
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:38 PM   #26
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This type of thread is why I like baseball and this board. It produces long and sometimes horrendously technical arguments, almost to the level of Hansard lol.
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Old 08-02-2009, 02:48 PM   #27
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Excuse me, Sir, but I asked this question earlier in the discussion and I think you may have overlooked it.....

Why do you believe that a player out of options has to be removed from the 40-man roster to be sent to the minors?
Actually, I thought I did. At least, I know I wrote up a response to that during the writing of responses to a wish7694 post. But it seems during the editing of the reply before submitting it, I inadvertantly deleted the portion which dealt with your question.

Here's the answer:

There are two kinds of assignments to the minor leagues—optional and outright. The difference between them boils down to this:

On an optional assignment, the player is with the minor league club but still on the major league 40-man roster; on an outright assignment, the player is with the minor league club but is NOT on the 40-man roster. Only players with option years remaining can be on an optional assignment. When the player has options left, he can be freely moved from and to the minors without waivers. When a player has no options remaining, he cannot be sent on an optional assignment; he can only be sent on an outright assignment.

An outright assignment always requires waivers and always removes the player from the 40-man roster.

A player with no option years remaining is either:
  • On the 25-man roster (and on the 40-man too, naturally, since you cannot be on the 25-man roster unless you are also on the 40-man roster); OR
  • In the minors and not on the 40-man and 25-man rosters.

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This type of thread is why I like baseball and this board. It produces long and sometimes horrendously technical arguments, almost to the level of Hansard lol.
To quote Futurama:

"You are technically correct—the best kind of correct!"


Last edited by Le Grande Orange; 08-02-2009 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 08-02-2009, 03:05 PM   #28
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I guess there wouldn't be any reason to include a player on the 40-man roster, who had just cleared waivers so that he could be outrighted.
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Old 08-03-2009, 03:07 PM   #29
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I guess there wouldn't be any reason to include a player on the 40-man roster, who had just cleared waivers so that he could be outrighted.
In MLB, if a club wanted to free up a 40-man spot immediately, they'd designate the player for assignment. That removes him from the 40-man roster and gives the club ten days to figure out what they're going to do with the player. They can either release, trade, or outright him.

If the club doesn't DFA the player, then the 40-man roster spot is filled until such time the player being outrighted clears waivers and is then actually assigned to the minors.
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Old 08-03-2009, 10:41 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by wish7694 View Post
Here is an example of transactions in support of my view of the CBA.

Transactions | Mariners.com: Team

There is no reason for the Mariners to put Cesar Jiminez on the ML DL and give him service time unless they were forced to do so by the CBA.

This is the obvious conclusion because he was demoted to AAA as soon as he came off of the DL.

If they could have done what LGO suggested, they would have just demoted him to AAA during spring training instead of putting him on the ML DL at the start of the season.

We both agree these spring training demotions can happen, but it can only happen to players who meet the criteria defined in the CBA above.
Jimenez was never activated off the DL. He was placed on the 15-day DL on 4/1 retroactive to 3/29, assigned to Tacoma (AAA) on 4/24, then transferred from the 15-day to the 60-day DL on 5/26. Jimenez was assigned to Tacoma for rehab, which apparently didn't go as well as they would have liked, and when the team had the opportunity (or needed to, whatever the case was) they moved him to the 60-day DL to clear a roster spot on the 40-man (likely for Guillermo Quiroz who was called up that day).

Fernando Perez and Miguel Garcia are similar situations for different reasons. Garcia, as was said earlier, was a Rule 5 draftee and by the guidelines of the Rule 5 draft, is on the major league roster or must pass through waivers and (if unclaimed) be offered back to the former team for half of the selection fee. Since the Sox wanted to keep Garcia, they put him on the major league DL, whether or not completely necessary (they may have been buying time while making an evaluation of whether or not to keep him).

Perez is a clearer situation. Perez is a player whom the Rays feel is a major league level player, or at least had a strong chance of making their opening day 25-man roster. When he got injured, they put him on the major league DL of course, because to demote him would be to burn an option year. Why demote a player who you feel might have made the team? As for the delay in putting him on the DL, that's more of a procedural thing than anything. There's really no need to put the player on the DL before April 1st since the final 25-man roster didn't need to be set until then. There is no benefit to placing a player on the DL earlier who will be out for three months, so they put him on "when they got around to it."

The issue that people seem to be having is with OOTP's need to have a spot available on the 25-man roster when a player comes off the major league DL before they can be demoted. A player can be demoted to the minors once they are healthy enough to come off of the DL without taking up that 25-man roster spot, but they must face the same restrictions and rules as if they were on that 25-man roster, meaning that if that player is out of options they must clear waivers, if that player can refuse assignment he may do so, and like that - just as if he were a member of the 25-man roster.

The problem (and I'm no coding expert) is that when the player is on the 15-day ML DL in OOTP, he is no longer connected with the "active roster" and the restrictions that come with it. Previously, less-than-honest players would take their players who were on the 15-day DL and demote them directly from the DL to the minors. Since the DL was more of a "holding area" and the only trigger affecting whether a player could be put in the area was injury status (and time spent in that area), players would pull the person off and directly into the minors just the same as if they were being pulled from DFA or another minor league. The waiver/refusal rules were coded into the active roster (as not to affect movement through the minors) and since the player wasn't on the 25-man active roster, it didn't apply.

With OOTPX, a restriction was coded in that prevented that loophole from working, albeit with a price. Instead of recoding the entire DL process (which I imagine would be time consuming and take away from other development), a temporary fix was put into play that forced the DLed player to be treated like a member of the active roster the only way that was available at the time - to make him be placed on the active roster.

The system currently works except for the fact that you have that 25-man roster need, which in the cases of Perez and Jimenez above would have screwed their respective teams when they became healthy (if they were using OOTP). The way the system works now there is no "wait and see" with injured players who might or might not make the 25-man roster. If you have a potential 25th guy who gets hurt in Spring Training, expect them to see some time on the active roster since you can't demote them to the minors when they're hurt, and you can't directly demote them without putting them on the 25-man roster first.

The ideal fix would be to have OOTP treat the 15-day DL as part of the active roster that doesn't count towards the 25 player limit, therefore allowing the players to accumulate service time, be faced with roster rules upon activation, but at the same time allow the opening on the 25-man roster that is needed. This really is what the purpose of the 15-day DL is.
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Old 08-03-2009, 11:26 PM   #31
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Perez is a clearer situation. Perez is a player whom the Rays feel is a major league level player, or at least had a strong chance of making their opening day 25-man roster. When he got injured, they put him on the major league DL of course, because to demote him would be to burn an option year. Why demote a player who you feel might have made the team? As for the delay in putting him on the DL, that's more of a procedural thing than anything. There's really no need to put the player on the DL before April 1st since the final 25-man roster didn't need to be set until then. There is no benefit to placing a player on the DL earlier who will be out for three months, so they put him on "when they got around to it."
The article I linked to clearly showed that the Rays thought of Perez as a potential major league player but that his chances of making the team were remote.

I agree that the timing of putting him on the ML DL is mostly procedural but that does not affect my argument in any way.

The idea that the Rays would put him on the ML roster to avoid "burning an option year" is highly unlikely.

That certainly didn't concern them with David Price, Delmon Young, Evan Longoria, or any other top prospect they had spending extra time in the minors in order to avoid service time, thereby gaining an extra year of club control before free agency.

Placing him on the major league DL results in him accumulating ML service time AND a ML salary. When considering how they treated other bigger prospects when they were ready for the show, the only logical conclusion is that they put him on the ML DL because they COULD NOT option him to the minors and put him on the minor league DL.

Your scenario has the Rays avoiding burning an option year for a player who is not going to play for them anyway (due to his injury), that makes absolutely no sense.

Also, I will happily take your account of the time line for Jiminez, but your account is still perfectly consistent with my interpretation of the CBA.
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Old 08-03-2009, 11:36 PM   #32
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Ok, I need a definative (as best as we can be definative with ML rules ) answer as to whether a player accrues major league service time while on the 60 Day DL?
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:07 AM   #33
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Ok, I need a definative (as best as we can be definative with ML rules ) answer as to whether a player accrues major league service time while on the 60 Day DL?
Yes, players on the 60 day DL receive service time.

Service Time: MLB Rumors - MLBTradeRumors.com

This article also clearly points out why teams would rather burn an option year than give a player service time - the extra service time can literally cost them millions of dollars.
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Old 08-04-2009, 12:24 AM   #34
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Ok, I need a definative (as best as we can be definative with ML rules ) answer as to whether a player accrues major league service time while on the 60 Day DL?
If it is the Major League 60-day DL (as opposed to the Minor League Emergency DL), yes.....

We have no Minor League Emergency DL in our game, so if he's on the 60-day DL in game, he should acquire service time.....

Last edited by Questdog; 08-04-2009 at 12:26 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:41 AM   #35
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I received a response from the contact I mentioned. It's a fairly lengthy and detailed reply, and is not necessarily definitive in all areas due to the sometimes somewhat vague language of the rules and CBA, but suffice it to say I'll have to eat at least a little humble pie.

Once I've parsed the reply enough to be sure I'm reading what it says correctly I'll post up the relevant results.

One tidbit I'll mention now though: the Major League DL does not become available for use by clubs until about nine days before the start of the regular season. And that has some impact on the nature of the assignment rules being discussed.

Last edited by Le Grande Orange; 08-04-2009 at 02:44 AM.
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Old 08-04-2009, 02:59 PM   #36
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I don't care about any of this stuff. Just don't make me clear a 25 man roster spot to activate a player from the ML DL. Let me option him directly to the minors.
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Old 08-10-2009, 05:33 PM   #37
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As I mentioned previously, based on the reply I received, wish7694 basically had it right and I had it wrong. Mea culpa.


Below I have summarized the important points of interest in regards to injured players, assignments, and the Disabled List.
  • Players actually on either Major League DL cannot be assigned, optionally or outright, to the minor leagues under any circumstances. They can only be so assigned once reinstated from the DL.
  • Major League clubs can reinstate a player from the DL and assign him, optionally or outright, to the minor leagues without clearing a 25-man roster spot first. The reinstatement and subsequent assignment are effectively considered simultaneous.
  • Players cannot be reinstated from either Major League DL until they are physically ready for playing.
  • Major League clubs are not obligated to place an injured player on the DL. (No club would do this, however, since the injured player would be using up a roster spot that could be used by an uninjured player.)
  • Players who are injured and physically unable to play, and are not on either DL, also cannot be assigned, optionally or outright, to the minor leagues during the second half of spring training nor during all of the regular season.

    Such players can be assigned during the off-season and first half of spring training if they meet all of the following criteria:

    (a) the player has less than three years of major league service;
    (b) the assignment, if an outright one, is not the player's second career outright assignment;
    (c) the player had no major league service the prior season;
    (d) the player was not selected in the immediately preceding Rule 5 draft.
  • Players who are injured but are capable of playing (i.e. have day-to-day or minor injuries), and are not on the DL, can be assigned to the minor leagues just like any other player.
  • Both Major League DLs cease operation by the Nov. 20th deadline for the filing of the reserve lists.
  • The 60-day Major League DL resumes when spring training begins.
  • The 15-day Major League DL effectively does not resume until 9 days before the start of the regular season. By rule, any player placed on the 15-day DL prior to the start of the season must serve at least 6 days of the regular season on the DL before he can be reinstated. If, for example, a player was placed on the DL 14 days before the opening of the regular season, he would still have to spend the first 6 days of the regular season on the DL before he could be reinstated.

Last edited by Le Grande Orange; 08-10-2009 at 05:39 PM.
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