Breaking ties

[Sandberg]

We had an odd situation in Asahi2 this season where there was a 3 way tie for the 2nd Wild Card position between Atlanta, Miami and San Francisco. The game solved this issue by having a 1 game playoff between Miami and SF but totally ignoring Atlanta. Based on real MLB tie breaking rules there should have been a 2nd game between the winner of the 1st game v Atlanta to move on.

What I'm wondering is if v17 is going to address this and other tie breaking issues that it's struggled with in the past. I've also seen it mishandle draft pick order when 2 teams have the same record in a given season. What should happen is that the previous season record be taken into account and the worse team gets the higher pick. I'd say this happens MOST of the time but we've found errors in the past and have had to manually correct them.

Thanks for any responses or attention.

[Markus Heinsohn]

Nope, the playoff code was not touched. This thing is so fragile, I won't touch it anymore. Any error (which is very very rare) can be fixed maually now with the playoffs matchup editor.

[Sandberg]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Nope, the playoff code was not touched. This thing is so fragile, I won't touch it anymore. Any error (which is very very rare) can be fixed maually now with the playoffs matchup editor.

Can that editor be used during the post season to modify matchups? I did a test sim when our situation came up and found that after adding in a game that the rest of the playoff tree got all messed up. In fact adding in that one game then meant I would have to manually schedule ALL the playoff games (I think). Instead of risking a crash of some sort and due to time constraints we went ahead with the OOTP results and moved on...too bad for Atlanta.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Nope, the playoff code was not touched. This thing is so fragile, I won't touch it anymore. Any error (which is very very rare) can be fixed maually now with the playoffs matchup editor.

Sorry, Markus, but the game should break ties properly. This is a pretty fundamental part of how leagues operate. And leagues don't all have the same rules for breaking ties.

I'll kindly point out that the system I have in mind for customizing playoffs can also be adapted to set up the tie-breaking rules for leagues. (Indeed, the two co-evolved.) That'd mean users could customize how they want ties broken in each league.

[Orioles1966]

I just had a league (200 plus team Midwest League)play about ten days worth of tie-breaker games in which all 70 playoff teams were already determined before hand.

I can see playing a game to decide a last playoff spot but I have no idea why all these games were being played. Seems very unnecessary to play tie-breaker games just too decide match-ups.

Some of the original tie-breaker games matched teams with different records. Huh ???

For instance,a team that finished in second place(by itself) and second place is an automatic playoff spot- it shouldn't be playing an extra game. The only way I see a game happening if it was the last automatic first round bye teams and that tie needed too be broken too see who plays opening round and who has the last bye.

[Cryomaniac]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Nope, the playoff code was not touched. This thing is so fragile, I won't touch it anymore. Any error (which is very very rare) can be fixed maually now with the playoffs matchup editor.

Is the issue with three team ties that the game cant schedule a game with an unknown opponent? So where it should be Day 1 A v B, Day 2 A/B v C the game cant handle not knowing who is going to play C so just doesnt schedule the game, hence it leaves C out completely?

Im with LGO on this, its something that really should be fixed.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Cryomaniac

Is the issue with three team ties that the game cant schedule a game with an unknown opponent? So where it should be Day 1 A v B, Day 2 A/B v C the game cant handle not knowing who is going to play C so just doesnt schedule the game, hence it leaves C out completely?

In the testing I did last year and the year before, sometimes OOTP would settle a three-way tie correctly*, other times it would not. I never was able to discern any pattern. Where it tends to have the most trouble is when clubs are simultaneously tied for playoff positions, e.g. a tie for the division title and wild card spot.

I've got a Wordpad file stuffed full of the various tie-breaking rules used by leagues, baseball and otherwise.

*Other than sometimes the wrong club getting to be the home club in a match-up.

[bwburke94]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

In the testing I did last year and the year before, sometimes OOTP would settle a three-way tie correctly*, other times it would not. I never was able to discern any pattern. Where it tends to have the most trouble is when clubs are simultaneously tied for playoff positions, e.g. a tie for the division title and wild card spot.

I've got a Wordpad file stuffed full of the various tie-breaking rules used by leagues, baseball and otherwise.

*Other than sometimes the wrong club getting to be the home club in a match-up.

LGO, would you be interested in sharing that Wordpad file?

[r0nster]

Wouldnt it be better to handle these odd number ties such as 3 way and 5 ways per football style rules such as home and road records or team vs team throughout the season ??? Might be too much to code but still a thought I am sure has been tossed around.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by bwburke94

LGO, would you be interested in sharing that Wordpad file?

I could, but it's a bit messy at the moment—plus I think the data is actually spread across a couple of files. I can take a look at them and clean it up. Or I can post a composite of the most frequently used tie-breaking steps/methods.

[Le Grande Orange]

Here's a little trip down the rabbit hole of tie-breaking. This list of items is quite extensive, though it is possible there are a few other conditions that I have not as yet incorporated. Note that what follows is tie-breaking for the purposes of determining a playoff qualifier via methods other than by playing a tie-breaking game.

I break down the items into categories and modifiers. Categories define the major criteria to resolve a tie, while modifiers can be applied to the categories to limit what is looked at within that category.

Here are all the main categories:

• winning percentage
• total runs scored
• total runs allowed
• total runs differential
• average runs scored
• average runs allowed
• average runs differential

Winning percentage is by far the most commonly used category. However, the other categories mentioned do appear in some league's rules, though rarely.

Here are the modifiers:

• head-to-head
• head-to-head sweep
• head-to-head, season series
• head-to-head, balanced
• versus division opponents
• versus division opponents, excluding teams involved in tie
• versus opponents in other division(s)
• versus other division-winning clubs
• versus post-season qualifying clubs
• versus conference opponents
• last specified number of games played

A modifier can be applied to a category to limit its scope. So, for example, winning percentage could be limited to head-to-head—that means whichever of the tied clubs had the better winning percentage in head-to-head games would win the tie-breaker. Or winning percentage could be limited to post-season qualifying teams—that means whichever of the tied clubs had the better winning percentage against the other playoff-qualifying teams would win the tie-breaker.

For those wondering, "head-to-head sweep" means a club must have won all the games in the head-to-head meetings—this qualifier comes from the NFL. The modifier "head-to-head, balanced" means if clubs have not played the same number of head-to-head games in each club's park, then the result of the first meeting between the tied clubs is disregarded so that only an equal number of head-to-head games in each club's park are used. This qualifier comes from the NHL. The "head-to-head, season series" is an MLB-used item which looks at whether a club won the season series in head-to-head games, rather than the winning percentage from the actual games played.

The categories are combined with modifiers to form the steps of a tie-breaker, with as many steps as a league considers appropriate.

There are also some "specialty" categories.

Last half of regular season winning percentage—MLB uses this one. It's a procedural system which starts by looking at a club's record over the last half of its games played. If both clubs have identical records, then it looks at the last half of games played plus one. If still tied, then it's last half of games played plus two. This continues until the tie is resolved. (The "versus conference opponents", "versus division opponents", and "versus opponents in other division(s)" modifiers could be applied to this category.)

Winning percentage, descending order of finish—This procedural system starts by looking at each tied clubs' record against the team in the league with the best record. If the clubs had the same record against the #1 team, then it looks at each tied clubs' record against the #2 team in the league. If still tied, then it moves on to the #3 team in the league, and so on, until the tie is broken. (The "versus conference opponents", "versus division opponents", and "versus opponents in other division(s)" modifiers could be applied to this category.)

Last game between the tied clubs—This one is straightforward. Whichever of the tied clubs won the last meeting between them wins the tie-breaker.

First game between tied clubs—This is similar to the above, except it uses the result of the first game between the tied clubs. In practice, this method is used by split-season leagues when there is a tie at the end of the first half. Whichever of the tied clubs wins the first meeting between them in the second half wins the tie-breaker.

Lastly, below are the categories used by the World Baseball Classic to resolve ties.

• team quality balance, runs
• team quality balance, earned runs
• runs allowed per 9 innings
• earned run average
• batting average

[Markus Heinsohn]

Originally Posted by Le Grande Orange

Sorry, Markus, but the game should break ties properly. This is a pretty fundamental part of how leagues operate. And leagues don't all have the same rules for breaking ties.

Yes, it should, of course. But again, the code is very complex, and whenever I tried to fix something, something else got broke.

Now, think about this: If I'd recode that part of the game entirely, for example implementing your system, would it be worth the minimum 2 months of work I 'd need for that, only to fix some rare problems and introduce a few new options which only 0.1% of customers would use? This is the question I have to ask myself, and right now the answer is no. This may change in the future, as maybe I'd get an idea to do it in less time, but right now it is what it is, I'm afraid.

[Orioles1966]

What about having a Force Playoffs to begin Tab?

I have had some past seasons when the season wouldn't end and there would be a few regular season games played each day past the end of the season for no apparent reason.

Forcing the playoffs to begin would let us schedule tie breaker games manually if we knew that there would be a day off or two before the playoffs began.

[Le Grande Orange]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Now, think about this: If I'd recode that part of the game entirely, for example implementing your system, would it be worth the minimum 2 months of work I 'd need for that, only to fix some rare problems and introduce a few new options which only 0.1% of customers would use?

Let me answer with a question: remember customizable playoffs? Remember when I posted the detailed proposal PDF for that? If I recall correctly, you said it didn't take that long for youto code (either that, or it wasn't hard to code), because you had a clear plan laid out in the proposal for you to follow. You didn't have to ponder how one playoff element would work in connection with another—I'd already done that in the proposal.

What I'm suggesting here is that tie-breaking (and improved customizable playoffs) may well be the same as that first go at customizable playoffs. There'd be a highly detailed proposal, one in which a lot of thought had been put into it to so as to think of every possible contingency and conflict, and have those addressed and avoided in the suggested system. So, perhaps, it wouldn't take anywhere near as long to code as you think, and there'd be far less issues you'd have to sort out before beginning coding.

When it comes to stuff like this, I don't do things half-measure.

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

This is the question I have to ask myself, and right now the answer is no. This may change in the future, as maybe I'd get an idea to do it in less time, but right now it is what it is, I'm afraid.

First, I'm not saying get it done this year or next year. Indeed, I'm not laying a time line on it at all.

Second, as I mentioned above, you wouldn't have to think of the idea of how to do it. I'd be the one doing that. An absolutely full and detailed system proposal presented that you could follow. And one that leverages something already in the game (schedule file system) and builds upon that.

If you exhibit a genuine interest in taking a look, at some point (e.g. next year, two years from now, whatever), at what I've got in mind, then I'll sit down and start working on it again. I put a lot of thought into it, but there's still more elements I'd need to sort out. Once I've nailed it all down, then I'd write it up for you to review.

[Orioles1966]

There is a football game in the UK(forgot the name) that has a page that outlines all tie breakers for teams and you can figure out what needs too be done to qualify for the playoffs.

I wouldn't mind seeing the same thing for OOTP17. At least I could manually schedule the tie breaker games before the game screws up the tie breaker games.

I had two teams today play a tie breaker game and one team had won 6 more games.

[bailey]

There is a manual workaround. PM if interested to know what it is.

[thehef]

Originally Posted by bailey

There is a manual workaround. PM if interested to know what it is.

This is my manual workaround, that may be the same as yours:

Originally Posted by thehef

IMO the best way to handle tie-breakers is - after all games are complete on the last regularly-scheduled day of the year - to NOT finish the day and then manually schedule for the following day any additional tiebreaker games that you need. Then finish the day, and OOTP will then see the additional tiebreaker game(s) as part of the regular season, as it should. Then if, after the next day's tiebreaker games are complete, there is still a tie (and/or there are additional games to be played as part of a multi-team tiebreaker), don't finish that day. Instead, manually schedule additional tiebreaker games... Repeat as necessary.

Even w/o ties I always manually schedule playoffs because OOTP's playoff scheduling is not realistic.

[Sandberg]

Originally Posted by thehef

This is my manual workaround, that may be the same as yours:

That looks like a very simple and easy workaround...thanks for posting it!

[The Wolf]

Originally Posted by Markus Heinsohn

Yes, it should, of course. But again, the code is very complex, and whenever I tried to fix something, something else got broke.

Now, think about this: If I'd recode that part of the game entirely, for example implementing your system, would it be worth the minimum 2 months of work I 'd need for that, only to fix some rare problems and introduce a few new options which only 0.1% of customers would use? This is the question I have to ask myself, and right now the answer is no. This may change in the future, as maybe I'd get an idea to do it in less time, but right now it is what it is, I'm afraid.

Markus, as usual you are thinking correctly. Good for you.

[Padreman]

Originally Posted by the wolf

markus, as usual you are thinking correctly. Good for you.