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Old 02-14-2020, 02:58 AM   #321
thehef
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I can't believe what a spit-show the BlackStros' press conference this morning was. I would think that Manfred, Crane, and most owners (and of course the Houston players) just want this to go away as soon as possible. So it would seem paramount that Crane would seek out a competent PR team to craft the best possible statements, and be prepared for the best responses to the obvious and most-crucial questions, and that Manfred would see to it that all of that was done.

Statements should have been something like:
"At the time we thought we were pushing the limits of the age-old, traditionally-accepted and allowed methods of sign-stealing. As it started, we didn't think we were breaking rules, just pushing them to their limits. As time went by it got carried away. We now realize we were wrong, and we are very sorry about that. We can't change the past. We can only learn from it. And we hope to earn the fans' forgiveness and trust as time goes by."

In response to whether the sign-stealing scheme gave the batters an advantage, affected the outcome of games, including the AL championship series and World Series, they should've said something like:
"We felt then and still feel now that we had a great team that was good enough to win it all. That said, we understand that people will question if our titles were tainted. That's fair. That's the unfortunate part for our players and our fans, but that's nobody's fault but our own. There's nothing we can do about that now, except to apologize."

No matter what Crane and the players said earlier today, it wasn't going to go away quickly. That said, if they were all prepared to a) say something resembling the above, and b) say it like they actually meant it, that would've been a good start. Especially compared to today's disaster.

(Somebody speculated today that perhaps due to the Bolsinger lawsuit and the fear of lawsuits that may follow, Crane and the players were instructed to NOT say anything that could be construed as admitting that what they did affected the outcome of games. Perhaps... That same person said that if the Bolsinger suit makes it the discovery phase... lookout!)
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:05 AM   #322
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In reality, there was nothing the Astros could say that would have been acceptable as an apology. And that is Manfred's fault. An apology for something of this magnitude becomes sincere when there is some kind of action that shows contrition. If Houston's players were made to suffer some kind on tangible punishment on level with the seriousness of the crime, then their words could suffice. But they haven't had any punishment. Just read some prepared statement that isn't in their own words.

At this point, the only thing I would accept from the players is hearing they are donating their 2017 salary/WS checks to charity or giving back their rings. Any words they have to say, no matter how sincere they try to make it, just reminds me they got away with it. And in their shoes, I wouldn't feel sorry for bleep if I cheated on purpose, got a ring for it, and all I had to suffer was an uncomfortable press conference.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:23 AM   #323
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In reality, there was nothing the Astros could say that would have been acceptable as an apology. And that is Manfred's fault. An apology for something of this magnitude becomes sincere when there is some kind of action that shows contrition. If Houston's players were made to suffer some kind on tangible punishment on level with the seriousness of the crime, then their words could suffice. But they haven't had any punishment. Just read some prepared statement that isn't in their own words.

At this point, the only thing I would accept from the players is hearing they are donating their 2017 salary/WS checks to charity or giving back their rings. Any words they have to say, no matter how sincere they try to make it, just reminds me they got away with it. And in their shoes, I wouldn't feel sorry for bleep if I cheated on purpose, got a ring for it, and all I had to suffer was an uncomfortable press conference.
Pretty much agree. But yesterday's bungling and insincerity just made it worse, rather than about as good as it could have gone, considering...

Doing no further harm is better than two steps back
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Old 02-14-2020, 09:50 AM   #324
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Pretty much agree. But yesterday's bungling and insincerity just made it worse, rather than about as good as it could have gone, considering...

Doing no further harm is better than two steps back
It was a dumpster fire. But again, I don't think there was anything they could have said that would have prevented it from being a dumpster fire in my eyes. W/o any kind of retribution it would have appeared hollow to me.

That's why, as much as I despise Belichek, he handles the media & public the way you should if you are are going to be an evil Sith Lord. "We're moving on to Cincinnati". Repeat. Never give an excuse, never an explanation, never give an admission, never give out info you don't want to. Then stick to that. Then stuff dies out. We still don't now why Malcolm Butler didn't play in the SB and nobody asks either. Everybody moved on to Cincinnati. No one expects to hear from him about it.

Houston should have just said they were getting ready for the 2020 season and repeated it. "I'm just here so I won't get fined." They ain't sorry, they'd do it again, they got away with it. And the frustration outsiders have with that is an outsider problem, not an Astros problem.
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Old 02-14-2020, 08:02 PM   #325
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Only thing I am unclear on is why you think making managerial decisions based on your betting needs would not include sitting or starting a player based on whether you were betting on the game.
That is clearly what the article was saying Rose did.
Which could be true but I dont see enough evidence to support it.

You didn't leave it in the middle ground of indeterminable. You left it as you didn't believe Rose did it.

Anyway, I've been trying to give you an out and get out of this discussion for several posts. When you don't consider possibilities with a bit of supporting evidence and instead rely upon belief to the contrary, there's nothing left to say.

So if you want to believe Rose's desire to win and keep his job outweighed the desires of his gambling addiction, or that duct tape stops climate change, have at it.
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Old 02-14-2020, 11:35 PM   #326
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You didn't leave it in the middle ground of indeterminable. You left it as you didn't believe Rose did it.

Anyway, I've been trying to give you an out and get out of this discussion for several posts. When you don't consider possibilities with a bit of supporting evidence and instead rely upon belief to the contrary, there's nothing left to say.

So if you want to believe Rose's desire to win and keep his job outweighed the desires of his gambling addiction, or that duct tape stops climate change, have at it.
I dont know why you keep on insisting that I need a way out when I clearly dont. The fact that I doubt Rose did it or not is irrelevant. I didnt write the article alleging that he made managerial decisions based on what he was and wasnt betting.

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether I think Rose's was innocent of doing what the article claims he did.
I'm not making that claim as I KNOW I cant say for sure. He may have let his betting affect his managerial decisions. I dont know. But my belief is
not the claim made in the article.
This whole argument is over whether the article supports the suspicion that Rose used his managerial position to aid his betting habit.
The article is making the claim that Rose was using
his managerial position to aid in his betting. Whether it was when he was betting or not betting.
I found the evidence of 4 games weak.
That's all. I have said that over and over again.

I dont know what you are getting from the article as you havent said as much on that. Mostly it's been vague statements The only statement you made regarding your interpretation of the story was basically what I said. Only difference was you put more emphasis on Rose not betting on those 4 games and using his position has manager to play and not play players as his bets required of him.
Thus affecting the Reds outcome.
I did not find 4 games and roster moves to be sufficient evidence to support the article.
That's it.
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:27 AM   #327
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https://forums.ootpdevelopments.com/...d.php?t=250353
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:38 AM   #328
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Hoo boy, another "thing that's been an aspect of baeball for well over 100 years" scandal where everyone wants to hand out punishments more draconian than what's already been delivered. Over something that, while against the rules, has never resulted in a larger punishment than "hey, stop that".
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Old 02-15-2020, 05:30 AM   #329
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https://www.ocregister.com/2020/02/1...ach-fullerton/

some little leagues ban Astros as a team name
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Old 02-15-2020, 06:00 AM   #330
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https://www.ocregister.com/2020/02/1...ach-fullerton/

some little leagues ban Astros as a team name
I should rename all the teams in my league to Astros...

People are idiots...
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Old 02-15-2020, 06:31 AM   #331
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I dont know why you keep on insisting that I need a way out when I clearly dont. The fact that I doubt Rose did it or not is irrelevant. I didnt write the article alleging that he made managerial decisions based on what he was and wasnt betting.

It has absolutely nothing to do with whether I think Rose's was innocent of doing what the article claims he did.
I'm not making that claim as I KNOW I cant say for sure. He may have let his betting affect his managerial decisions. I dont know. But my belief is
not the claim made in the article.
This whole argument is over whether the article supports the suspicion that Rose used his managerial position to aid his betting habit.
The article is making the claim that Rose was using
his managerial position to aid in his betting. Whether it was when he was betting or not betting.
I found the evidence of 4 games weak.
That's all. I have said that over and over again.

I dont know what you are getting from the article as you havent said as much on that. Mostly it's been vague statements The only statement you made regarding your interpretation of the story was basically what I said. Only difference was you put more emphasis on Rose not betting on those 4 games and using his position has manager to play and not play players as his bets required of him.
Thus affecting the Reds outcome.
I did not find 4 games and roster moves to be sufficient evidence to support the article.
That's it.
If you wish to continue please respond to post 311. Maybe you can get some discussion there.

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Old 02-15-2020, 06:42 AM   #332
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I should rename all the teams in my league to Astros...

People are idiots...
Why would people want their kids team's name to be a reminder of a disreputable group and have them associated with that? I assume little leagues also wouldn't approve team names like hitmen or hookers.
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Old 02-15-2020, 07:46 AM   #333
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Set a better example, that you're untainted by filth?

But please, no, everybody continue with their damnatio memoriae frenzy.
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Old 02-15-2020, 08:02 AM   #334
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We're talking about the Astros. A tainted name for comparison is perfect.
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Old 02-15-2020, 08:16 AM   #335
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Hi folks. I'm starting a new OOTP game. I'm calling the league the Disreputable League. I need some team names. Here's what I've come up with so far.

Black Sox
Astros
Hitmen
Loan Sharks
Roses
Raiders
Senators

Its a ten team league so I need three more. Thanks for your help.
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Old 02-15-2020, 10:12 AM   #336
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Hoo boy, another "thing that's been an aspect of baeball for well over 100 years" scandal where everyone wants to hand out punishments more draconian than what's already been delivered. Over something that, while against the rules, has never resulted in a larger punishment than "hey, stop that".
1. Electronic sign stealing has not been going on for 100 years. Sign stealing has. Sign stealing is legal. Electronic sign stealing is not.

2. "Hey, stop that" is the reason why we are talking about this now. If MLB came down hard on the RSox back in 2017, maybe this wouldn't be MLB's main topic in 2020.

3. Speaking of 2017.....MLB sent out a memo after telling Boston & the Yanks "Hey, stop that" which said "Moreover, all 30 Clubs have been notified that future violations of this type will be subject to more serious sanctions, including the possible loss of draft picks.". Thus, supposedly, no more "Hey, stop that." Astros & Boston were warned.

4. Again, speaking of 2017....This incident and memo was sent the very same year Houston became garbage men and they completely thumbed their noses at it. They got the memo and didn't "stop that". So does Manfred want this to stop? Or does he want to send out more ignored memos?

5. Not punishing Houston & Boston severely after having won it all, after having been warned, is punishing the teams who don't cheat.
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Old 02-15-2020, 12:08 PM   #337
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Manchester City just became the Houston Astros of the English Premier League in soccer when they received a two year ban from Champions League competition for Financial Fair Play violations.
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:34 PM   #338
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Hi folks. I'm starting a new OOTP game. I'm calling the league the Disreputable League. I need some team names. Here's what I've come up with so far.

Black Sox
Astros
Hitmen
Loan Sharks
Roses
Raiders
Senators

Its a ten team league so I need three more. Thanks for your help.
Neat idea, but has been there before.

The Braves and Cards also have recently been slammed and have had people placed on the permanently ineligible list.
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Old 02-15-2020, 01:36 PM   #339
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1. Electronic sign stealing has not been going on for 100 years. Sign stealing has. Sign stealing is legal. Electronic sign stealing is not.

Actually.....


"In 1897, George Stallings, the manager of the Philadelphia Phillies, had Morgan Murphy, a backup catcher, hide in a clubhouse beyond center field with a binocular and a telegraph that he used to alert Stallings to what pitch the opposing catcher was calling"


So, technically it has




I, personally, see a pretty easy line to draw on sign stealing. If the person stealing the signs isn't in the field of play, then it's cheating. What the punishments are or should be, or how angry other fans should get, that's all beyond me


But I can't imagine that in the 120+ years since the Phillies used the telegraph to try to steal signs, that the only other times it's happened were the '51 Giants and the BoSux & Astros recently. Maybe I'm just too cynical or jaded, but just a hunch that it's not as rare as some would like it to be
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Old 02-15-2020, 03:17 PM   #340
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If you wish to continue please respond to post 311. Maybe you can get some discussion there.
Post 311 has nothing to do with the article. I have already acknowledge that i dont know for sure that Rose didnt bet against or even for his team. Why do you think i didn't contest Boomcoach's opposing view. I have not claimed for a fact that Rose didn't do what the the article claims that he did. I dont believe he did but i would need to do more research to state it as fact.
The article was on whether Rose was harming the game and betting against his team by using his manager position. The article offered up four games for its claim. I found the claim to be weak. I did not see enough evidence to support the claim that Rose bet on his team to lose or to win. Now if you have a picture of a betting slip from Rose that shows he bet on the reds or a an audio of Rose saying he was starting or not starting players to help his betting during the four games in question i would concede it to be more favorable to the article's claim. But so far my position is that the claim is weak. I offered up reasons why i thought it was weak.
Do you have stronger evidence that his roster moves during the 4 games he didn't bet were due to gambling?
I'm done arguing over this as you simply refuse to say what your interpretation of the article is.

Last edited by BaseballMan; 02-15-2020 at 10:43 PM.
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