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Old 12-23-2016, 09:43 PM   #1
Cobra Mgr
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Card gamblers, do you consider this cheating?

Edge Sorting

For those that don't know what it is, click the link.

Phil Ivey & Cheung Yin Sun had their winnings taken away by the courts for using this tactic even though it isn't against the rules & the casino did nothing to protect itself. I don't see how casinos can be legally protected sore losers. Somehow, when an addict doesn't get help for his problem and loses everything, that is his responsibility. But when the casino doesn't help itself & loses big, now that is the winner's problem?
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Old 12-24-2016, 12:31 AM   #2
rudel.dietrich
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You use it by manipulating the dealer into turning some of the cards usually through outright lying. That is what makes it different than card counting.
And courts in two nations have declared it cheating and because of the human manipulation involved I would have to agree with them.
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Old 12-24-2016, 01:17 AM   #3
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It is cheating.

Especially because it is in teams. Now, however, it is also cheating if my buddy and I go to a poker table and play as a team. But good luck stopping it. You can raise everyone but AA and KK out of a hand most times at will as long as there are two of you and you don't overdo it.

We once caught my younger brother and a friend of his doing that at our college game 35 years ago. We made them give us their money and leave. To this day, we
talk about that at family gatherings (I'm sure we will at Christmas again!)

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Old 12-24-2016, 11:05 AM   #4
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I think it should be the casino's responsibility to turn the cards each hand, use cards w/backs that can't be manipulated, and state beforehand what the house rules are. This is an industry that turns nearly every minutiae into it's favor. They can't be crybabies when the customer finds a minute detail that gives them an edge.
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:29 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
I think it should be the casino's responsibility to turn the cards each hand, use cards w/backs that can't be manipulated, and state beforehand what the house rules are. This is an industry that turns nearly every minutiae into it's favor. They can't be crybabies when the customer finds a minute detail that gives them an edge.
Dealers work on tips and the gambling industry on the whole is usuallly customer friendly.
Dealers are usallly willing to do about anything within the rules to keep the person at their table and happy.
And card turning is not always for cheating. I have seen it at the tables before because people who think it brings them luck, they are OCD or in one case I was at a table with someone from Hong Kong and she was heavily into Feng Shui repeated asked that cards be turned and even asked at one point if some drink glssses could be taken away so that they reached a certain number.

In any event these two manipulated dealers into turning cards for the purposes of cheating. I would again agree with the courts.

And now that I have defended the casino industry I need to go take a hot shower.
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:35 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobra Mgr View Post
I think it should be the casino's responsibility to turn the cards each hand, use cards w/backs that can't be manipulated, and state beforehand what the house rules are. This is an industry that turns nearly every minutiae into it's favor. They can't be crybabies when the customer finds a minute detail that gives them an edge.
That's just a justification for cheating. What they did was no different from marking cards.
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:42 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudel.dietrich View Post
Dealers work on tips and the gambling industry on the whole is usuallly customer friendly.
Dealers are usallly willing to do about anything within the rules to keep the person at their table and happy.
And card turning is not always for cheating. I have seen it at the tables before because people who think it brings them luck, they are OCD or in one case I was at a table with someone from Hong Kong and she was heavily into Feng Shui repeated asked that cards be turned and even asked at one point if some drink glssses could be taken away so that they reached a certain number.

In any event these two manipulated dealers into turning cards for the purposes of cheating. I would again agree with the courts.

And now that I have defended the casino industry I need to go take a hot shower.
If I read it correctly, they didn't manipulate the dealer to do anything. And also, from what I read, this was a common thing you look for if you are in the profession. The casino was just too lazy to prevent it from happening.

I liken it to stealing signs. There is the unwritten rule about trying to steal them. But you can't fault the other team for taking advantage if the catcher loudly yells at the pitcher what he wants him to pitch. You cover your mouth, you meet at the mound, you switch up signs.

There is a responsibility to defend yourself. Especially when you are in the position to make the rules up yourself. From the little bit I know about law, the person who draws up the contract loses when any ambiguity in the wording causes a dispute between the parties. So if the principle holds, that again puts the onus on the casino.
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Old 12-24-2016, 11:58 PM   #8
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Quote:
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That's just a justification for cheating. What they did was no different from marking cards.
It's not a justification. Cheating is when you break the rules. No rule was broken. What they did had the same affect as marking the cards, but they still didn't mark them.

Speeding along on the hwy with little protection is not allowed. But you can do so if you are on a motorcycle. Yeah, it is unsafe. But an officer can't arrest a cyclist because it goes against common sense safety concerns. When a rule is broken, then he can act.
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Old 04-17-2019, 05:00 PM   #9
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Yeah, I 100% believe this is cheating.
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Old 09-30-2019, 01:21 PM   #10
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It's not cheating because the house needs to make money or there would be no place to play. There are games where there is no house edge like poker.

Last edited by kq76; 10-01-2019 at 08:01 AM.
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Old 09-30-2019, 05:49 PM   #11
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Quote:
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That's just a justification for cheating. What they did was no different from marking cards.
But they didn't mark cards. No rules were broken. They found an edge. Just like when some poker players can tell when others have a good hand through body language. Is that cheating?
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